Kamen Rider Black RX...Why Must You Hurt

[Burkion]

The two alternate forms, mostly Biorider, would be of good use to RX in a much later episode. You have to wait till it reach episode 35 (if I'm not mistaken) where they showed that Crisis was almost 100% successful in killing RX, if not for his Biorider form which saved his life.

I have no real problem with alternate for....OK, I do when they're like what OOOs does, or just appear without reason...

...I'll briefly explain what I mean by that.

OOOs is a Rider who, honestly, cannot fight. He just...can't.

He has zero skill. All of his victories come from power-that's it. If his current combo isn't working, he just needs a DIFFERENT set of powers! He doesn't work with his power, he just uses it until things get tough, then he switches it with MORE power.

That's what annoys me about Alternate forms.

However, RoboRider was introduced very well, a believable reason to have him show up. Bio Rider...not AS much but I can buy it.

My problem with Robo and Bio are that RoboRider is *COMPLETELY USELESS*. Nothing it brings to the table matters because BioRider is MADE of plot device power. I NEED TO GROW SMALL! I NEED TO TELEPORT! I NEED TO EJECT POISON FROM MY BODY! I NEED TO MAKE MY ORGANS ELASTIC!

It's just poor writing all around.

Technically, RX is supposed to be superior and stronger than BLACK in all aspects, since he's an upgraded version (heck we all should know that). Both RX and BLACK had their fair share of getting their asses kicked... I don't see any difference. Apparently for RX's series, they love to shoot scenes of Okamoto jumping around, flipping around (RX has a lot of such scenes/shots), so they just included more scenes of him being thrown around as well.

Eh. Having seen RX and Black...

RX would have an edge with his sword, but with out the sword, Black is the superior fighter. He's stronger then RoboRider has been shown to be, he's faster then RX, he's got consistent secondary powers (able to see infrared and track things and what not) and he just comes off as stronger in general...especially by the END of Black.

At the end of Kamen Rider Black, after Kotaro has finally, fully grown into the power of the Kingstone, he was a nigh unstoppable force for good. Took on Shadow Moon and would have won the first fight had it not been for the Creation King stepping in for Moon, and was virtually untouchable by ANY of the Priests or Monsters of Gorgom.

There's a reason why the Priests wanted him dead so quickly and feverishly, at the start.

I have this feeling that, by the end of Black, Kotaro had obtained the true power of the Kingstone, the true power of the Century King, that he was supposed to have gotten before the operation and mutation was interrupted.

If you remember, Shadow Moon didn't get this power either-his operation was botched and he spent most of the series nearly DEAD, until being forced to mature by the Priests power. It gave him a huge boost, and the Satan Saber sure as **** helped a lot....

But Shadow Moon was still stunted, and didn't have time or experience enough to grow into his power like Black did. He had a lot of raw talent and abilities, but no method to hone them.

That, added with the fact that NONE of the enemies RX has fought matches up with the three Priests in their monster forms, or even some of their stronger monsters...

RX just feels like he's a weaker fighter in general. I've yet to see him take on threats as powerful or terrible as what Black was facing in the end game.

And I wouldn't make that comparison if this was ANY other Rider, but I kind of have to here because *THIS IS A DIRECT SEQUEL* and TV shows do not work like video games.

I think its because the King Stone was split in two, that he's much weaker now. It gave him the Laser Sword, sure...but that's a crutch. His Rider kick can't even kill anything anymore, even if they're much much weaker then he used to fight.

When people sees RX as stronger than BLACK, they continue by saying that Crisis is not as strong/threatening/dominating as Gorgom. But when they see RX in a weak/defeated state, getting his ass whooped side to side, how come they never mentioned stuffs like "Wow, Crisis can be as good, if not, better than Gorgom! seeing that RX is stronger than BLACK, and here we have RX being thrown around". Sure Crisis came up with some of the stupidest/whackiest plans, but they still had their good moments.

Crisis is a villain empire that I REALLY REALLY WANT TO LIKE. I don't like them as much as Gorgom...

But that's because I fucking LOVED the Priests of Gorgom.

They were more then coworkers. They were more then comrades. They were more then FAMILY. They existed for and with each other, completely and utterly. When one of them was hurt, the others CARED. When they were DYING, they cared less for themselves and more for EACH OTHER....and when Black finally started to kill them, one by one, what really drove them in the end was Revenge.

This is a GREAT, UNIQUE dynamic that you never see with other villains.

However it does not mean that they're stronger or weaker the Crisis.

Crisis is the superior force, having more to them then just three people in a cave with a bunch of monsters.

Gorgom has to play everything extremely carefully, and each and every failure is a major set back in ways that deeply effect them.

Crisis can lose a few dozen fights and have it not matter in the long run. Hell, they could lose a general or two and be just fine. ...Hell, they could lose THE LEADER and be just fine. They're a huge freaking EMPIRE, untold legions waiting for their chance to move out and take up the reigns.

However I think that's what gives Gorgom a slight edge, at least in terms of competence. Gorgom HAS to be smart to survive. Most of their monsters are in a deep sleep because they don't have enough food to feed them all, thanks to Black, so their ability to do things is very stunted, meaning every step they take has to be calculated and precise. They have a few odd ball ideas, but for the most part their plots are very well done, and we see just how horribly they can wreck **** if Black is dead.

Crisis...doesn't have nearly the same record for competence. They've had a good plan here and there, but there's too much in fighting and one ups man ship for them to be on the same level as Gorgom.

However that's in plotting.

In terms of raw power... I dunno.

The Generals, in, well, general, seem less powerful then the Priests, or even Birugenia. ...infact for the most part they all seem MUCH weaker then Birugenia. Except...for Jack. Jack is the odd ball here. He's yet to do anything out side casually snap a thunder sword in half, but if he proves to be as powerful as they're building him up to be....

Plus, the Gorgom monsters tended not to be power houses in their own rights. THey were good, generally, due to special abilities or traits that work in specific plans. The Crisis monsters are just general power houses or have no specific anythings.

In the end, I'd rate them about equal. The leaders of Gorgom FAR out class the leaders of Crisis, and they have far more cunning and competence...

But Crisis is much, much larger, and has more active monsters to pile on, which would, if nothing else, stale mate the war in the long run.

Roborider (and Biorider) just happen to be in the wrong episode. The first episode featuring Shadow Moon, is just to show the viewers that this newly-revived character, is stronger than the previous one in BLACK, thus having him pwning the two RX alternate forms.

I have to call bullcrap on Shadow Moon being stronger now then he was then, if only because in that specific fight he was without the Satan Saber, which is the deadliest weapon in all of Black thus far (Including RX) and the fact that...

Honestly, there's ZERO reason for Shadow Moon to be more powerful. Unless I missed something and he took a class from DBZ, he does not grow more powerful from being near death. ...or dead as Black showed....

Infact, if anything, I'd suspect he's LESS powerful. Considering his rusted appearance, lack of primary weapon, lack of knowledge of how all of his powers work, lack of actual fighting experience...

To explain that last bit-Shadow Moon, in RX, has completely and utterly forgotten everything he ever knew. ...which means he NO LONGER REMEMBERS HIS FIGHT WITH BLACK. He just...knows Black is his enemy, possibly due to their King Stones.

This fits well with teh fact that most of the fight he's just shooting laser beams out of his fingers, which is not how Shadow Moon should fight Black. As for the Alt Forms...

Roborider, in general, is a wasted potential. He (and his gun finisher) wasn't used much, but at least they remembered to bring him in into scenes whereby such a form is needed. I'm not sure if you've skipped/forgotten about that Banana episode; the Roborider form apparently saved his life. He could have been RX, but hey, you already created this character, lets make use of him, so that people won't say he's completely useless.

I am trying very hard to forget the banana episode ever existed. Please do not remind me of it.

And yeah. RoboRider is my biggest gripe with RX, outside the Black stuff, because *I LIKED HIS INTRODUCTION*

I like RoboRider more then I like Bio Rider!

I LIKE ROBORIDER!

.....and he's FUCKING USELESS. Goddamnit RX! Stop taunting me!

Thats because thats not how the Crisis members work. Unlike Gorgom Priests who worked together to kill Black Sun, each of the Crisis members wanted to go solo, wanting to proved to their Leader that his or her clan is better than the others'. [you can see the situation as Gorgom Priest vs Birugenia's plans]In my opinion, this can be seen as a more interesting storyline within the evil organization. In a much later episode, you will get to see these Crisis guys trying to outdo each other, as they wanted to impress the Leader as being the one to successfully kill RX, even if it means to attack each other.

I already touched on most of this up above.

Though learning that there will be more in fighting...fills me with much dread.

That's just so...generic.

I mean, if there's a good dynamic involved, or a DAMN good reason t obe had (Birugenia was supposed to be a Century King, but was rejected and thus has a burning hate for Gorgom in general, yet still works towards becoming the next Creation King, the Priests dislike him and all that) then I can get behind the in fighting.

This?

Crisis In Fighting doesn't work as well to me because their primary goal is to take over the earth to *SAVE THEIR PEOPLE*

Yet they never act like their people are in immediate danger, and it just comes off as a lame excuse now to attack the Earth. Plus we have seen the in fighting SO MANY TIMES before AND after....

NeonZ: Eh... I always got the impression that RX wasn't even attempting to fight Shadow Moon there. He just keeps talking and taking hits, barely making an effort to fight.

I'd readily buy that except for the fact that RX out right says that this isn't the Shadow Moon he knew and that this was just another enemy to kill. ...mind he forgets this a few episodes later, but that's because RX is a moron. Besides, as mentioned, its not like Shadow Moon himself was putting up that great a fight.

What bothered me more about those episodes was how RX kept going about how before Shadow Moon was different and had honor, but that was just wrong and didn't match at all Shadow Moon's original personality.

As I said. RX is a moron.

Also, yeah, he stops Shadow Moon by attacking his energy source... with a single hit. Considering how the Kingstone was never broken that easily before, I think that shows pretty clearly that RX was stronger.

To compound what I mentioned before- we've never actually SEEN an enemy directly attack the King Stone before (except for Black against Shadow Moon's, but more on that in a moment) so we ahve no idea exactly HOW durable it is. Presumably more durable then the rest of the armor...but Black's armor seems to be better at taking damage then RX's. ...or at least the special effects crew kept screwing up and forgot to carry over the damage, but whatever.

Now as for the other thing I mentioned...

Black, with the Satan Saber, cuts down Shadow Moon in one slash, shattering his King Stone.

....first off, well, that's it.

Game over.

Shadow Moon should have, and did, die.

Until it magically healed off camera, in the same kind of logic as Kotaro NEVER EVER TRYING TO LOOK FOR HIS DEAD BROTHER'S BODY TO BURY SINCE RX SHOWED THAT THE CAVE BARELY COLLAPSED AT ALL AND HSOULD HAVE BEEN EASY TO GET INTO! ....sorry. That aspect always pissed me off.

Kotaro WOULD HAVE GONE THROUGH HELL to get Shadow Moon if he had ANY reason to believe him alive...

...and he certainly would go through a few tons of rubble to get his body back.

But not in RX land! Oh no, he's too busy GETTING ADOPTED!

...right.

Anyways. My point is.

Shadow Moon's kingstone, by the time of RX, has already been severly damaged (And in a more impressive way. RX had to do his usual full body thrust with the laser sword to damage it, Black just slashed it in one motion with the Satan Saber. Though, personally, I chalk that up to the awesome power of the Satan Saber. Why didn't Black keep that again?) so I'm not TOO surprised.

Unless the healing factor of the Century Kings can some how also heal their King Stones...in which case why hasn't RX's King Stone healed as well and reverted him back to Black?

 

[NeonZ]

His Rider kick can't even kill anything anymore, even if they're much much weaker then he used to fight.

Haven't you ever thought that it's the other way around? Everything is too strong to be killed by a Rider Kick?

Kotaro WOULD HAVE GONE THROUGH HELL to get Shadow Moon if he had ANY reason to believe him alive...

In Black itself, he mostly forgets about Nobuhiko after the first few episodes... until he suddenly remembers him after episode 10. So, that wasn't the first time.

To explain that last bit-Shadow Moon, in RX, has completely and utterly forgotten everything he ever knew. ...which means he NO LONGER REMEMBERS HIS FIGHT WITH BLACK. He just...knows Black is his enemy, possibly due to their King Stones.

Alright, I've just checked those episodes.

Shadowmoon didn't lose every single memory, he still remembered his mission to defeat Black. In fact, that's the only thing he remembers. He's also shown analyzing RX's moves throughout the episode, before their battle, and RX blames his defeat in episode 22 on Shadowmoon observing him earlier, when he gets blasted as BioRider.

He did also get hurt by the Crisis generals during the battle, like right after he turned into Robo Rider and a land mine threw him through the air.

Also, for all that you claim that the Crisis monsters are weaker, the monster of the week in that episode sliced through Shadow Moon's armor with a single attack and had him completely immobilized.

The second episode with Shadow Moon does hint that he's stronger somehow too, considering how he starts pulling new abilities out of nowhere (the two Shadow Sabers). Also, in the second episode RX goes back to not attacking Shadow Moon.... until he he goes all "unforgivable" and proceeds to easily defeat him, even blocking one of the Shadow Sabers with his hands and walking through the other without much damage.

Also, Shadow Moon's Kingstone was never damaged in Black to the point that he recovered his original identity and returned to human form.

Anyway, the final few episodes will show how RX is supposed to be operating in a rather stupid power scale with some of the stuff that RX faces and pulls.

 

[Burkion]

Haven't you ever thought that it's the other way around? Everything is too strong to be killed by a Rider Kick?

I have zero reasons to believe that though. The show hasn't given me any reason to think this.

In Black itself, he mostly forgets about Nobuhiko after the first few episodes... until he suddenly remembers him after episode 10. So, that wasn't the first time.

You mean the first 8 or less episodes. Where he's constantly searching for Gorgom, or trying to help his remaining family settle down, or dealing with Gorgom Plots and being suspicious....

Plus, as I mentioned at the start of the thread-Black has its own problems. I will never deny this. However, it makes ZERO SENSE for Kotaro to NOT try to retrieve his brother's body if there was one to find.

Shadowmoon didn't lose every single memory, he still remembered his mission to defeat Black. In fact, that's the only thing he remembers. He's also shown analyzing RX's moves throughout the episode, before their battle, and RX blames his defeat in episode 22 on Shadowmoon observing him earlier, when he gets blasted as BioRider.

A) that has always been a poor excuse for some one to be better.

B) I SAID that. I said the only thing he remembered was that Black was his enemy. ...Possibly due to the King Stones.

He did also get hurt by the Crisis generals during the battle, like right after he turned into Robo Rider and a land mine threw him through the air.

Yes, yes they did.

It's the closest the Generals have come to being COMPETENT and assisting during a fight like the Priests of Gorgom. Keep in mind, that was a tactic they started employing...

3 or so episodes in. I think its 3. The chick joins the monster and blasts Kotaro.

...So good job generals! It took you 22 freaking episodes to try to HELP kill RX! ...not that you didn't COCK IT ALL UP afterwards but you aren't the issue here.

Also, for all that you claim that the Crisis monsters are weaker, the monster of the week in that episode sliced through Shadow Moon's armor with a single attack and had him completely immobilized.

First things first, I never thought that Shadow Moon was all that more durable then Black.

And plenty of monsters have been able to slice through Black's armor.

It's just...really how often did we see Shadow Moon get attacked like that before?

Ever?

So yeah. Not too impressive to me.

Second... Er...let me reread my stuff, but I'm faaairly certain I never said the Crisis MONSTERS were weaker.

Closest I came was this: "That, added with the fact that NONE of the enemies RX has fought matches up with the three Priests in their monster forms, or even some of their stronger monsters..."

Which I hold true. Mind, stronger monsters is loosely termed. I clarify it later, in that same post, with this: "Plus, the Gorgom monsters tended not to be power houses in their own rights. THey were good, generally, due to special abilities or traits that work in specific plans. The Crisis monsters are just general power houses or have no specific anythings. "

The Crisis monsters are generally stronger then the average Gorgom monster, at least of the same time period. They match up better with the strongest of the Gorgom monsters...and that's because they don't need to be anything BUT strong.

However-My point in all of that was the fact that Gorgom monsters MEANT NEXT TO NOTHING TO BLACK AT THE END OF HIS SERIES.

They were fodder by the end, even the really strong ones, because Black had fully realized his potential as a Century King.

None of the Crisis monsters thus far have proven to be *THAT* much superior to the Gorgom monsters.

RX reminds me more of...early Black. Before he trained himself to be stronger, before he started to fight against the likes of Birugenia, every fight a desperate struggle to survive.

I think that's why I think he's weaker-he still reminds me, 28 episodes in, of an early Black.

That's one thing I did like about Black. He gradually got more skilled and grew into his power as the show went along, from needing divine (possibly Creation King) intervention in his first show down with Birugenia, to over ten episodes later, finding the rage and power to finally out fight and drive him back.

...also I really liked Birugenia as a villain. Dude was awesome.

The second episode with Shadow Moon does hint that he's stronger somehow too, considering how he starts pulling new abilities out of nowhere (the two Shadow Sabers). Also, in the second episode RX goes back to not attacking Shadow Moon.... until he he goes all "unforgivable" and proceeds to easily defeat him, even blocking one of the Shadow Sabers with his hands and walking through the other without much damage.

Eh, the Shadow Sabers were nothing special.

And he'd shown the ability to make things before. Remember his two, utterly useless, hench girls he made for the hell of it?

If he had some how summoned the Satan Saber, THAT'D be more impressive if only because we've seen how horrifically strong it is.

Also, Shadow Moon's Kingstone was never damaged in Black to the point that he recovered his original identity and returned to human form.

....because in Black he was dead and he died without ever becoming his human self because that was the entire point of his story and character.

RX...just randomly revived him and gave him super special power ups because it'd draw in ratings. ...there is honestly no other reason.

...Hell! I just remembered! Black and Moon were connected through their very natures! Kotaro SHOULD HAVE FELT THAT HE WAS STILL ALIVE!

It's how it worked BEFORE in Black!

*Shakes fist* RX!!!

Anyway, the final few episodes will show how RX is supposed to be operating in a rather stupid power scale with some of the stuff that RX faces and pulls.

....there's going to be more plot devicing from Bio Rider isn't there....



Also, my review of Episode 28!

...you know, **** it all, I'm rooting for Black Shogun here.

Dude showed up because the Crisis Generals are dicking around wasting time and resources with fucking BUTTERFLY plots, and is here from the big man to get things back in ship shape. Oh, and he DIRECTLY ATTACKED BLACK AS HIS INTRODUCTION.

He's officially my favorite villain in RX thus far. Except maybe Jack. ...Possibly.

 

[NeonZ]

....there's going to be more plot devicing from Bio Rider isn't there....

That's part of it. But it'll also address my comment regarding the Rider Kick and the general power of the Crisis monsters. I'm talking about near the ending of the show though, so it'll take a while for you to reach that point.

 

[Basri RX]

His Rider kick can't even kill anything anymore, even if they're much much weaker then he used to fight.

Haven't you ever thought that it's the other way around? Everything is too strong to be killed by a Rider Kick?

I have zero reasons to believe that though. The show hasn't given me any reason to think this.

Well, I guess if thats how you feel and how you see it, I just have to feel sorry for you. :laugh: In order to appreciate the craziness of some stuffs in this series, you just have to convince yourself, that the Crisis monsters are indeed stronger. or too strong to be killed by a Rider Kick, unlike some pathetic Gorgom monsters which can be even killed by just a Rider Punch (no kick needed). But with zero ability to make yourself see it the way is it, I wish you good luck and have a nice suffering for the remainder of the series.

Honestly, there's ZERO reason for Shadow Moon to be more powerful. Unless I missed something and he took a class from DBZ, he does not grow more powerful from being near death. ...or dead as Black showed....

Same as above -- whether you, (or any of the angry viewers in the same boat) like it or not, new Shadow Moon is indeed physically stronger than the previous one in BLACK, as shown in the plot/bad two episodes. But with zero reason to believe anything, you will have difficulty enjoying the rest of these RX shits.

 

[Vitor]

And that, I find, is why I just....dislike RX.

It isn't a sequel-its a brand new story that just uses Black as a cheap gimmick. And since Black is my favorite Rider....

That is... UNFORGIVABLE!

*Shrugs*

You know what, I like RX and a lot of other people do to

I liked Masked Rider alot as a kid (can't stand to watch it now, too much camp for my tastes) and I liked the suit design a lot more than I did Black's, especially Robo-Rider/Super Gold

Since I haven't seen all of RX (and I doubt you have either unless you're from one of those fortunate countries that got Kamen Rider and shitloads of other Toku dubbed), I can't actively carry on a topical conversation about his exploits in comparison to Black

The only real problem that I have currently is the over-the-top expectations of Rideron

 

[Aoi Kurenai]

My understanding (and if anybody can verify please do) is that the series had basically been planned out, designed, and the main hero was even cast when at pretty much the last minute it was decided by Toei to have Kotaro continue into the next Rider series.

Wow, really? I've never actually heard this, but it would explain a lot. I always figured it was probably meant to be some random Metal Hero RX show rather than a Kamen Rider or Black sequel.

 

[Burkion]

*Shrugs*

You know what, I like RX and a lot of other people do to

I liked Masked Rider alot as a kid (can't stand to watch it now, too much camp for my tastes) and I liked the suit design a lot more than I did Black's, especially Robo-Rider/Super Gold

Since I haven't seen all of RX (and I doubt you have either unless you're from one of those fortunate countries that got Kamen Rider and shitloads of other Toku dubbed), I can't actively carry on a topical conversation about his exploits in comparison to Black

The only real problem that I have currently is the over-the-top expectations of Rideron

I'm not saying its wrong to like RX...

A) that'd be stupid, as while the show can feel like its insulting ME, its not an insulting or offensive show...nor would that matter anyways...

B) My opinions are not yours.

And I've found all of RX, through...various methods...subbed.

Though I'm currently at episode 29.

Don't take this thread too seriously.

This is just me bitching about how I wish something could have been more then it was, but acknowledging, in the rare moments of non nerdrage, that the show isn't a BAD show.

It's a terrible SEQUEL, but on its own merits, as its own thing, it's pretty average. Not my cup of tea for a show but eh. I prefer the more serious stories.

Kind of why I could marathon V3 and Kuuga, but have a hard time watching Stronger more then once a week. I LOVE Stronger...but his show is just very goofy, on levels that V3 never quite touched.

 

[MattComix]

I'll put my opinion on it this way. Superman III and IV are bad but there is one redeeming thing about both of them: Christopher Reeve. Because no matter how bad the script was or how crappy the effects had gotten he was still playing Superman with all the sincerity he ever did.

RX is kinda Superman III and IV to Blacks I and II. It doesn't work as a sequel to Black but it still has Tetsuo Kurata. Also the Black RX design looks like a logical next step from Black. Plus Robo and Bio Rider are forms are weird but cool.

Besides at the end of the day, there are worse Rider shows than RX. A lot worse. Hell, at least RX has a clear and satisfying ending rather then going for something pretentiously vague or a "drink your Oval Tine" ending.

 

[Mr. Rhythmic]

I really like RX. Sure, it was a bit more mainstream and a little goofier, but Kotaro was still the hero I love, the kaijin were very unique, and the Crisis Empire was pretty damn awesome. We got introduced to some great characters like Joe, and had some very cool fights and some good dramatic scenes. I love Biorider and Roborider (especially Roborider), and the RX costume is one of my favorites.
And the first episode of the 'final monster' story arc is one of my favorite Kamen Rider episodes ever.