Are western audiences so different from japan audiences regarding super sentais?

I can't help but question if you really can call KR kid's programming at this point. There is a *LOT* of death in Kamen Rider. I mean A LOT. It feels like every single series involves multiple, sometimes horrible deaths nearly every episode. And that's from Showa and Heisei eras.

No matter how you cut it, that much death is a heavy subject. And with that I have to ask: What about it makes it kids programming at that point? The presentation? The idea that heros simply appeal more to children than adults?

At some point you have to recognize that "Marketed to kids" is not the same thing as being "for kids". Toku is just japanese superhero programming. Most of the superhero movies in the US these days are marketed at the male 14-30 demographic in the US. And I'd say most of the KR's I've seen are at about the same level of maturity as the various summer blockbusters stateside. Batman, Captain America, Thor, Avengers...those about the same as KR.

Hell, Iron Man and Spider-Man and some others have even fewer mature themes. If we're just talking about what APPEALS to kids then half the R-rated action flicks with blood flying everywhere APPEALS to younger boys.

Toku is a big enough genre, just like american comics, that some of it can be called kids stuff and others can't. I think Sentai is firmly in the "for kids" area. Akin to the Teen Titans or Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtle cartoons in the US. But KR and Garo and the like are more like the presently airing Young Justice, which is far darker.
 
THe way I always understood it, Super Sentai is aimed at pre school age kids and a little older, especially nowadays, hence the lighter and softer approach.

Kamen Rider was aimed at a more general audience, from Kuuga on, but around Den-O started to be aimed purely at kids on a higher age grade than Sentai and it's mainly staid that way.

Ultraman almost always is General Audience fair, with some venturing to older (Seven X) and some younger (Cosmos).
 
I can't help but question if you really can call KR kid's programming at this point. There is a *LOT* of death in Kamen Rider. I mean A LOT. It feels like every single series involves multiple, sometimes horrible deaths nearly every episode. And that's from Showa and Heisei eras.

No matter how you cut it, that much death is a heavy subject. And with that I have to ask: What about it makes it kids programming at that point? The presentation? The idea that heros simply appeal more to children than adults?

At some point you have to recognize that "Marketed to kids" is not the same thing as being "for kids". Toku is just japanese superhero programming. Most of the superhero movies in the US these days are marketed at the male 14-30 demographic in the US. And I'd say most of the KR's I've seen are at about the same level of maturity as the various summer blockbusters stateside. Batman, Captain America, Thor, Avengers...those about the same as KR.

Hell, Iron Man and Spider-Man and some others have even fewer mature themes. If we're just talking about what APPEALS to kids then half the R-rated action flicks with blood flying everywhere APPEALS to younger boys.

Toku is a big enough genre, just like american comics, that some of it can be called kids stuff and others can't. I think Sentai is firmly in the "for kids" area. Akin to the Teen Titans or Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtle cartoons in the US. But KR and Garo and the like are more like the presently airing Young Justice, which is far darker.

Garo is written for and aimed at adults. It is obviously "darker" than Kamen Rider would ever go. You wouldn't see a Kamen Rider episode like, say, the one in series one of Garo where the guy ties up naked women and murders them by stabbing/cutting their voodoo dolls (in some interesting places ...)

Not every Kamen Rider series involves death in every single episode, especially not the recent ones. In W and Fourze, only the major villains die; all Fourze's villains-of-the-week survived, and all but three of W's did. In OOO, most deaths happened towards the end of the series, and all human hosts of the Yummy survived. The victims of the week in Den-O survived. There's been a definite shift towards less death and violence - hence why a lot of western fans complain they'd like to see Kamen Rider go back towards the style of earlier Heisei if not Showa.

Basically, as others have said, it's just a cultural difference between what Japan and the USA each consider appropriate for kids. To paraphrase a post I made earlier in the thread, Sentai is aimed at preschool-aged children, yet even the lightest and goofiest of Sentai series contain more violence and "darker" themes than you'd usually see in an American show made for that age group. Kids are still the primary demographic of Kamen Rider, it's still seen as a children's franchise even though there are older fans. There is even a gap between America and other western countries in what is considered OK for kids, I know that Germany and other countries have made creepy or violent cartoons and shows for children that were met in the English-speaking world with responses of "... that's for kids?!"
 
And with that I have to ask: What about it makes it kids programming at that point? The presentation? The idea that heros simply appeal more to children than adults?

When you're dealing with Japanese media, there's two key factors to look at for determining intended audience: ratings demographics, and timeslot. Based on a look at those two factors, Garo is absolutely a show for adults, and Heisei Kamen Rider absolutely is not.

Heisei Kamen Rider episodes air at 8 AM on Sunday mornings, as part of the Asa Nichi Kids Time Block. It airs sandwiched between Toei's Super Sentai franchise, and Toei's Pretty Cure franchise. Both franchises target extremely young children, think about 3-6. Super Sentai skews more towards boys, and Pretty Cure more toward girls. If KR was really aimed at adults to any significant degree, it would make no sense to schedule the program this way.

That said, Kamen Rider is generally the cornerstone of the Asa Nichi Kids' Time block, and draws the highest ratings. So could you argue that it's the most popular program because it draws the broadest audience, due to its adult appeal? Perhaps, but if you look at ratings demographics, most shows simply don't draw a significant number of viewers older than 12. This was true even back during Heisei Rider's "dark" era, when shows like Faiz and Blade were the franchise's standard bearers.

As proof, here's a comparison of the demographic ratings data for every Heisei Rider series where it's available. This generally starts with Faiz and goes up through Fourze (Wizard's probably won't be out until next year). Japan reports ratings by population, so the ratings numbers represent what percentage of the Japanese population tuned in to a specific program. The demographic ratings work the same way, showing what percentage of Japanese persons in a given age range opted to watch the show. The numbers I'm choosing to compare are the general (total population) rating, the kids rating (viewers under 12), the teens rating (viewers 13 to 19), and the M1 rating (male viewers aged 20 to 35). I'll be comparing figures from the first episodes of the various series, since that's generally when Rider viewership is highest.

Faiz Episode 1:
General: 10.5%
Kids: 23.4%
Teens: 5%
M1: 3.9%

Blade Episode 1:
General: 10%
Kids: 16.4%
Teens: 2.5%
M1: 4.4%

Hibiki Episode 1:
General: 8.6%
Kids: 13.6%
Teens: 1.1%
M1: 4.3%

Kabuto Episode 1:
General: 10.9%
Kids: 17.3%
Teens: 2.8%
M1: 5.8%

Den-O Episode 1:
General: 8.5%
Kids: 12.8%
Teens: 4.9%
M1: 4.6%

Kiva Episode 1:
General: 7.6%
Kids: 11.6%
Teens: 2.1%
M1: 3.6%

Decade Episode 1:
General: 6.3%
Kids: 9%
Teens: 0.2%
M1: 4.2%

Double Episode 1:
General: 10.2%
Kids: 15.2%
Teens: 4.2%
M1: 10.3%

OOO Episode 1:
General: 10%
Kids: 15.4%
Teens: 6.3%
M1: 6.6%

Fourze Episode 1:
General: 6.3%
Kids: 10%
Teens: 2%
M1: 3%

By now it should be clear that no demographic likes Kamen Rider better than children under 12. Kamen Rider simply wouldn't sustainable if it targeted other demographics, due to lack of viewership (though, Double might be able to get by doing that). I don't think this would be the case so consistently if Kamen Rider was "really" a property for the 14-30 crowd that just happened to be marketed aggressively to children. I would say Kamen Rider is more like, say, Nickelodeon's Airbender shows, a property that lives or dies on kid appeal, but also happens to have an older fandom that appreciates the property's more sophisticated elements. Generally, good children's entertainment will be something an adult can enjoy to some degree.

Now, let's look at Garo. Its original timeslot information is lost, but it is generally known that it aired after midnight. Its sequel, Makai Senki, aired from 1:45 AM to 2:15 AM. It's unthinkable that many kids would even be up regularly at that time, let alone watching TV. Plenty of folks over 18 end up with reasons to burn the midnight oil, though (or experience simple insomnia). Generally post-midnight shows in Japan tend to be products aimed at older-yet-geeky audiences, and can include more sexuality, violence, and dark themes than their prime time or morning counterparts. Demographic data for Garo viewership isn't available, but generally the ratings ranged from 0.5 to 1.5% (as befits a post-midnight time slot).

So how did the show survive, let alone spawn a sequel? Again, this points at its intended audience. Garo was overwhelmingly aimed directly at older fans, who generally have more disposable income than younger folks. These viewers are far more likely to support a show by purchasing it on home video, or buying lots of pricey collector merchandise like figures and replicas. By aiming at a small but cash-heavy demographic, it's possible for Garo to turn a profit despite being made on a much smaller budget than Rider, and generally being seen by fewer people. In this way, Garo is fundamentally unlike Rider, despite probably being targeted at the sort of grown-up who also chooses to keep up with Heisei Kamen Rider.

Toku is a big enough genre, just like american comics, that some of it can be called kids stuff and others can't.

You are totally right here. That said, I think Rider is just not in the segment of tokusatsu that can't be called kid's stuff. Yuusha Yoshihiko, Cutey Honey the Live, Shibuya 15, Youkai Ningen Bem, the Magister Negi Magi tokusatsu, the Ranma 1/2 tokusatsu, the Arakawa Under the Bridge tokusatsu... yeah, definitely not for kids. Everything about these shows screams "not for kids," from scheduling to marketing to content. Rider is pretty much for kids, though, even if it touches on more mature themes from time to time.
 

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