Japanese 101, part 2

i'm currently waitlisting a japanese class at school, i hope i get in

Oh, now I understand. It's just the Romanazation that's wrong. Well, in my opinion, Romanji is always wrong :laugh: . Well good luck with that. My Sensei absolutely hated Romanji, and tried his best to keep us away from it so we wouldn't get all confused like you guys. But I think what your teacher is trying to do is to give you vocabulary, since learning the characters takes a long time, so when you master the characters, you'll know some vocabulary. IMO, that's not a good idea, but I'm sure you'll make it through. :thumbs:

Exo_Kopaka said:

That's how it's spelled. "ありがとう", which in Romanji (God I hate doing this) is a ri ga to u. The last う is silent, and only extends the と. It's not spelled wrong, unless the book has it in Romanji. I'm confused at what you're saying. :disappoin

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That's how it's written in the book but let me double check.

ありがとう Arigatoo

I'm just use to it as arigatou not arigatoo. Same with sensei being sensei rather than sensee. If you want to see the text book we use its actually available online at various torrent sites like Pirate Bay. Look for Genki I.

Exo_Kopaka said:

I don't understand. Were you studying in Romanji by yourself or something? I don't understand how a book's spelling is different than the original. Unless you're being tested on Romanji, as opposed to the actual real spelling.

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I was learning kana on my own in order to do transliterations for my website (which is why there are uncorrected errors on it at this time but I will not correct them until I learn more Japanese).

As for what I mean by the book's spelling it's just words like "sensei" and "arigatou" and words like that being written as "sensee" and "arigatoo". It just throws me because I learned from dictionaries and the like.

And yes, we're being tested on the romaji and English translations first then on hiragana (in two weeks) then in four weeks on katakana and in six week on some kanji.

Also we learned the numbers today - which I knew - except she's using the alternative numbers instead of the more common. Example, I learned the number as "yon" but she wants us to say it as "shi" and instead of nana for seven she wants us to use shichi and I can't remember if she wants us to use kyuu or ku.

Exo_Kopaka said:

It's ok. I studied by learning how to write them first, with the exact stroke order. For me, it took several hours of just sitting there and writing each character over and over and over and over until I could get it right, and then it will be come a habit over time and naturally come to me. I used flash cards, but I don't think it's necessary to laminate them.

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The only problem I'm really having with writing is I'm a leftie and kana along with kanji is meant for righties. I'm having a hard time writing from left to right in regards to stroke order.

Exo_Kopaka said:

Try setting up your flash cards like I do. For Hiragana, write the Romanji(ugh) on one side, and then the real character on the back. Then you can just be like "ah I foget" and turn it over. Then, just put the card in a seperate pile to practice more intensely on. Eventually, you won't need these flash cards, and you just have to recite them verbally as opposed to reading the disguisting Romanji. Then, as you recite, you can write! :thumbs:

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LOL -- That is EXACTLY how I set up my flash cards! On one side it's the kana and the other romaji. I even did that with the greetings we're to learn - one side with the romaji and the other with the kana.

Exo_Kopaka said:

But yeah, if you really want to master the basic characters, I HIGHLY reccomend writing the character over, and over, and over, and over. And over. It really helps. And I don't mean just 3 or 4 times. I mean like 3 or 4 pages worth of the same character. You'll be sure to master them in a few weeks. :thumbs:

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Oh, I know. She gave us grids and told us to make more copies so that one page is for each character and with roughly 48 hiragana.... that's a lot of copies but it's worth it.

Exo_Kopaka said:

This was the book I used last year:
http://www.amazon.com/Japanese-Busy-People-I-Version/dp/4770019874

Now I'm using the yellow one. And yes, you do find these at Borders and such, but my Sensei orders them from Japan so that he can get them in bulk and cheaper, like your text book! :anime: Good thing about this book is that there is absolutely NO Romanji in it.

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A classmate of mine used that book in high school. She's been helping me with my pronunciation since that is very off in a good many things.

kyo28 said:

Just want to jump in quickly to wish you the best of luck with your courses, Mika. And when it gets tough, don't give up. I've failed my last exam (intermediate-advanced level) mostly because I couldn't get enough time studying due to my job ... so if it gets hard, just keep hanging in there.

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::glomps Kyo:: WHERE HAVE YOU BEEN!? ::glomps more::

Thanks for the words of encouragement.

kyo28 said:

Regarding the romanization, various books use different methods and one is not better than the other, just different. Officially, these methods are accepted:
- Hepburn method (this one is mostly used by western people)
- Kunrei-shiki (this one is mostly used by Japanese)
- JSL (lesser used variant)

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Off hand no idea what this book uses other then the kanji we'll use will be Joyo Kanji. The only thing I recall about the Joyo is that it differs from the JLPT version. Now if I recall even more... the Joyo is what Japanese elementary students learn... right?

kyo28 said:

So a word like ありがとう will be transcribed as arigatou, arigatoo or arigato (with a line over the o) depending on the romanization method. All are valid methods but the most important things is that you know how to write in Japanese characters. In that way I think Kunrei-shiki is the best method as it distinguishes between づ and ず, something other methods tend not to do.

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I'll ask her tomorrow which method we're learning because off hand I know I didn't read anything about the versions we're learning. The book is by the Japan Times is that helps.

Sample of the book can be found here:
http://genki.japantimes.co.jp/whatis06.en.html

kyo28 said:

When studying characters, be it kana or kanji, it's very important to also learn how to write them (which is hard than just learning to recognize them). That's why I keep writing characters over and over when studying them. Of course, it depends on the level op proficiency you're aiming at ... but in my case it's an important aspect. A good book to learn the basic rules about stroke orders for writing characters is Kanji & Kana by Hadamitzky and Spahn. The forword takes 1/3 of the book and leaves only 2/3 for the actual characters but that way you'll have a good understanding of the writing system and how to study kana and kanji. If you're just aiming for recreational purposes, it might be a bit too much effort to learn to write so recognition should be enough.

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Well, you know me and you know I love watching my shows and listening to music and everything like that... it would be nice to actually understand what is being said, sung or even written. Yes, it's recreational but at the same time I want to take this seriously as if I were studying it in order to work for a Japanese firm. So yes, I want to not only learn and understand Japanese well enough to do stuff on the computer but also to write and communicate in it by hand and verbally.

kyo28 said:

I think Genki is pretty good text book for starters. I wouldn't recommend Japanese for busy people, on the other hand. Their grammatical explanations are too shallow, don't go deep enough so you'll have trouble making your own sentences down the line. A very good book to get deeper grammatical understandings is Japanese, the Spoken Language ... took me +/- 2 years to go through those 3 volumes but at the end you'll have a good understanding of basic grammar. A basic dicitonary of Japanese grammar and An intermediate dictionary of Japanese grammar are very good to study as well as reference works. I'm going through the intermediate dictionary now and I'm picking up some things (mostly newspaper style or very formal writing style) that I didn't know yet.

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Any particular dictionary or other reference books that you recommend?

kyo28 said:

Quick question: how much do you guys pay and how many hours a week to you get?

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I paid $405 (excluding registration fee of $30) for the class. Out of my own pocket, no financial aid. The book for the 101, 102 and 103 classes are the Genki Elementary Japanese book 1 and it was $39 even and the workbook and even $20. Yes there are places to get it less but once you pay shipping it pretty much evens out. In all, for one class - five days a week (five hours) for roughly 14 weeks - it was under $500. For the year, I'm looking at around... $1300.

Hey Mika,

Yeah, I’ve been away mostly because I’ve been busy but also because I had my fill a bit of anime or tokusatsu related forums. Anyway, back on topic:

I know the Genki books. In my opinion, they’re pretty good for starters. You’ll get a good start with those and gather some basic knowledge ranging from grammar to vocabulary and characters.

Mikazuki said:

Off hand no idea what this book uses other then the kanji we'll use will be Joyo Kanji. The only thing I recall about the Joyo is that it differs from the JLPT version. Now if I recall even more... the Joyo is what Japanese elementary students learn... right?

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Well, not quite. The 1,945 Jyouyou kanji comprise about 1,000-something kanji for elementary school students and an additional 900-something for secondary school students. Basically, you can consider it the character set every Japanese person should have mastered by the time they enter vocational school, university or quite school to go working. The Ministery has compiled an official list which can be found here:
http://www.bunka.go.jp/kokugo/main.asp?fl=list&id=1000003929&clc=1000000068

In regards to JLPT, the kanji that you need to know for the level 2 exam equal approximately the 1,000 kanji that elementary students know at the end of their 6th year.

Books I can recommend? Wow, where to begin? I think you’re set with Genki for at least the next 2 years. But if you want to go deeper into certain aspects, here’s what I can recommend and have used myself:
- Kanji study: The Kodansha Kanji Learner's Dictionary (http://www.kodansha-intl.com/books/html/en/9784770028556.html). I’m studying this from cover to cover now. For each kanji you get the basic meaning, stroke order and words where this kanji occurs grouped by meaning. Very useful.
- Grammar:
o Japanese, the spoken language (http://yalepress.yale.edu/yupbooks/book.asp?isbn=9780300038347). From Yale univ. If you can finish and comprehend all three volumes, you’re set for basic Japanese grammar. Unlike books like Japanese for Busy people, they do not simplify grammar but instead go deep into each grammatical point. It’s a bit overwhelming at first, but if you can master these, you’re basically up to the level of most Bachelor students that major in Japanese.
o A dictionary of Basic Japanese grammar (http://bookclub.japantimes.co.jp/act/en/Detail.do?id=0454). Good book to recap basic grammar and getting lots of examples, as well as a reference work
o A dictionary of Intermediate Japanese grammar (http://bookclub.japantimes.co.jp/act/en/Detail.do?id=0775) same thing but the next level (I’m going through this from cover to cover now)

Have a look at this example from Japanese the Spoken Language:
http://yalepress.yale.edu/yupbooks/languages/pdf/jsl3_lesson25.pdf
Most people will say that they go too deep into grammatical analysis even for beginners, but in my opinion, this is how it should be. Japanese for Busy People tends to simplify Japanese grammar to such a point that you’ll almost be unable to form your own sentences or grammatically analyze a given sentence, even giving you the false idea that you’ve learned all there is to learn about a certain grammatical topic. Not so with JSL! As you can see, they start from short example conversations but go very deep into grammatical analysis. If you can master that, you’re set to be able to analyze grammar and form your own sentences in Japanese, as well as make distinctions in nuances and the likes. It’s really worth it but a bit hard at first.

Anyway, all that is just my opinion so I don’t sell it as the gospel for Japanese studies. It’s just based on what I’ve experienced so far.

Japanese classes can indeed be pretty steep in price. I’ve reached a bachelor’s degree in Japanese translation but I’d like to step up and get a Masters degree. There are two levels:
- MA Japanese philology (the ‘easier’ option)
- MA in Advanced Japanese (the ‘harder’ option, after which one should be able to translate virtually anything, ranging from technical to legal documents)
I took the entrance exams and passed for the first MA but not for the second MA. That’s why I keep going in self study now (building vocabulary and practicing kanji mostly) to hopefully one day start with the advanced MA. That’ll set me back 11,500 USD (all in: courses, exams, syllabus) spread over 3 years (duration of the course). As you can guess, for that amount, I want to enter the course thoroughly prepared because failure would mean 11,500 USD down the drain. So yeah, Japanese studies are expensive. :disappoin