Zyuden Sentai Kyoryuger - Brave 40 "Right in the Heart! It's Rough Being an Old Guy

[lazycoconut]

Setting priorities is all about what you do, not what you feel. That's what makes it difficult. He acted on what he should do, not on what he wanted to do.

And that shows he was NOT under her control.

Not in this episode, but in the flashback scene (leading to the pink hair and everything)

I'm sure several people have had times in their life where they're desperately in love with someone but choose not to jump in because there are other things to accomplish first. That's what Nossan did. That's what I would do in that situation. I may not help being in love, but I'll still have to do the right thing.

Let's be honest and call it infatuation, which is what it is. Candelira is Deboss, so any romantic involvement with her is wrong.

But that's not what he thought. You're putting your bias onto his character.

He asked Candelilla to stop doing evil things, try to understand humans, and help him rescue those who were caught. That's what he asked when he was doing dogeza, and that's what he asked when he was getting beat up by Debo Kantokku. Nowhere did he ask her to run away with him or to love him back.

He never even talked about his own feelings. All he said is that he "believes in her".

You said he was sad that she went back to Deboss. She did do the right thing by giving him back his Gaburevolver, but she would have had to go back to Deboss anyway. It wouldn't be safe for her not to.

She is an insult to his character. It's like pairing Saeko Sonozaki (a well-written, interesting character, with a story arc, and is shown to be starved for affection) with Shunpei. Would that be any better if Shunpei were played by an attractive and popular voice actor? No!

I could go on a tangent (but won't) about how dreadful both Candelira and Luckyuro are as a concept. They're like that MST3K episode with "Timmy Bobby Rusty": "Well, he doesn't have to DO anything, because he's so CUTE!" But that was a parody ...

 

[kuroihikari]

Not in this episode, but in the flashback scene (leading to the pink hair and everything)

That scene was the second time he met her human form, and he wasn't affected by any spell yet.

Let's be honest and call it infatuation, which is what it is. Candelira is Deboss, so any romantic involvement with her is wrong.

Again, there is nothing wrong with being "infatuated". What's wrong is doing the wrong thing because of it. Which didn't happen.

You said he was sad that she went back to Deboss. She did do the right thing by giving him back his Gaburevolver, but she would have had to go back to Deboss anyway. It wouldn't be safe for her not to.

But that's her home. There would probably be consequences, but you can't cover all that in one episode.

She is an insult to his character. It's like pairing Saeko Sonozaki (a well-written, interesting character, with a story arc, and is shown to be starved for affection) with Shunpei. Would that be any better if Shunpei were played by an attractive and popular voice actor? No!

Saeko's charm (FWIW) had nothing to do with a personal conflict involving falling in love and doing the right thing. Rather, she was seeking attention from her family, and thus lavished affection on Isaka, thus causing her to do bad things. That analogy doesn't work because there is no context in which Saeko and Shunpei interacts (because they were from different shows).

Nossan is all about that. A man so desperate for affection yet he chooses to do what he has to do: Protect his family and the world. This scenario is entirely consistent with that.

Do you think it would be horrible, if, for example, Akiko was male and Saeko fell for male!Akiko, thus helping the W crew and causing problems with her family? I think that would be perfectly fine. That could mean growth for male!Akiko and Saeko.

 

[lazycoconut]

Again, there is nothing wrong with being "infatuated". What's wrong is doing the wrong thing because of it. Which didn't happen.

He continued to maintain that Candelira, a villain, had to be good just because of his crush on her.

But that's her home. There would probably be consequences, but you can't cover all that in one episode.

Yes, I agree. I understand WHY he was sad over it, but he surely understands that she couldn't do anything else.

Saeko's charm (FWIW) had nothing to do with a personal conflict involving falling in love and doing the right thing. Rather, she was seeking attention from her family, and thus lavished affection on Isaka, thus causing her to do bad things. That analogy doesn't work because there is no context in which Saeko and Shunpei interacts (because they were from different shows).

I'm making a comparison of a hero/villain relationship that would be equally stupid if it occurred in the same circumstances. Shunpei would drag her character down because he is, quite frankly, a moron (even though I like him and find his actor cute)

And can we again stop pretending this is "love"?

Nossan is all about that. A man so desperate for affection yet he chooses to do what he has to do: Protect his family and the world. This scenario is entirely consistent with that.

It's not like he has no one. And while I understand that family love is not the same as romantic love ... he's thinking as a horny male. That is not wrong, but it's also not "true love."

Do you think it would be horrible, if, for example, Akiko was male and Saeko fell for male!Akiko, thus helping the W crew and causing problems with her family? I think that would be perfectly fine. That could mean growth for male!Akiko and Saeko.

Yes, because Saeko's a villain. Even if, say, Wakana had done the same thing before (a la Torin) it still wouldn't be right.

I won't even touch on the way that, if any other Sentai had a happy ending where two of the villains are redeemed and survive and the only person to really suffer and die because of the villain group is a minor character that appears in a flashback, people would hate it and say it was bad writing. Now they want exactly that to happen in Kyoryuger, just so they can have a Nossan/Candelira love story and maybe a cute scene of Luckyuro reading manga with Amy or something. What kind of logic is that?

 

[kuroihikari]

He continued to maintain that Candelira, a villain, had to be good just because of his crush on her.

That's not his reason at all. He stated his reasons clearly, and none of it is "I have a crush on you." I think you're obfuscating what really happened just because you want to hate on Candelilla.

I'm making a comparison of a hero/villain ship that would be equally stupid if it occurred in the same circumstances. Shunpei would drag her character down because he is, quite frankly, a moron (even though I like him and find his actor cute)

But again, the context is lacking, so it couldn't occur in the same circumstances.

It's not like he has no one. And while I understand that family love is not the same as romantic love ... he's thinking as a horny male. That is not wrong, but it's also not "true love."

He has no one. He says that "No one will like me". Yuko says "She's finally the one". Clearly they've had experience with this, to the result we have now.

It not being "true love" is subjective. He put his body on the line for her, and wishes and tries for her to change for the better. That's already much more than I would have to say for a lot of cases of "love". He doesn't even follow her blindly. He stays put to his ideals.

Yes, because Saeko's a villain. Even if, say, Wakana had done the same thing before (a la Torin) it still wouldn't be right.

I won't even touch on the way that, if any other Sentai had a happy ending where two of the villains are redeemed and survive and the only person to really suffer and die because of the villain group is a minor character that appears in a flashback, people would hate it and say it was bad writing. Now they want exactly that to happen in Kyoryuger, just so they can have a Nossan/Candelira love story and maybe a cute scene of Luckyuro reading manga with Amy or something. What kind of logic is that?

It wouldn't be right if someone reforms for the better? I don't get that mindset at all. I'm all for redemption, except when the character involved is clearly a psychopath (and thus literally unable to be redeemed.) It's a much better victory than killing the misguided villain.

Honestly, it's kind of a sad day when society starts thinking redemption is bad. Sentai (and I think kids' shows in general) should not be a story which shows the dark side of what-if. There are other genres that do that.

 

[lazycoconut]

That's not his reason at all. He stated his reasons clearly, and none of it is "I have a crush on you." I think you're obfuscating what really happened just because you want to hate on Candelilla.

I think you're romanticizing it just because you want a "love" story. If he weren't hot for Candelira, would he have seen her the same way?

But again, the context is lacking, so it couldn't occur in the same circumstances.

All right, hypothetical characters in the same show!

He has no one. He says that "No one will like me". Yuko says "She's finally the one". Clearly they've had experience with this, to the result we have now.

It not being "true love" is subjective. He put his body on the line for her, and wishes and tries for her to change for the better. That's already much more than I would have to say for a lot of cases of "love". He doesn't even follow her blindly. He stays put to his ideals.

It's this fictional "Disney" love where just gazing into each other's eyes is eternal and lasting love. This is how Cinderella is sold as love rather than an abuse victim shacking up with a foot fetishist.

He's not entitled to a girlfriend. His actions aren't right just because he's lonely. Hell, I'M lonely and all my relationships have ended disastrously. Should I marry a bank robber because he seems like a nice guy and hasn't been back to jail for a while?

It wouldn't be right if someone reforms for the better? I don't get that mindset at all. I'm all for redemption, except when the character involved is clearly a psychopath (and thus literally unable to be redeemed.) It's a much better victory than killing the misguided villain.

Honestly, it's kind of a sad day when society starts thinking redemption is bad. Sentai (and I think kids' shows in general) should not be a story which shows the dark side of what-if. There are other genres that do that.

I'm pointing out the lack of logic in the fandom, almost as one, wanting to see something they would hate if not for the "love" story/Luckyuro being cute

 

[kuroihikari]

I think you're romanticizing it just because you want a "love" story. If he weren't hot for Candelira, would he have seen her the same way?

I'm stating the facts, not romanticizing anything.

Besides, Souji also said the same thing as he did in a previous episode. Souji is entirely oblivious to women so, I'd like to think it's a rational thought. Torin is also seriously considering the possibility, despite having started this out with the idea that "All Deboss, including I, have to be exterminated."

All right, hypothetical characters in the same show!

But still, no context. You can't judge whether it's good or not when you have nothing to judge.

It's this fictional "Disney" love where just gazing into each other's eyes is eternal and lasting love. This is how Cinderella is sold as love rather than an abuse victim shacking up with a foot fetishist.

He's not entitled to a girlfriend. His actions aren't right just because he's lonely. Hell, I'M lonely and all my relationships have ended disastrously. Should I marry a bank robber because he seems like a nice guy and hasn't been back to jail for a while?

His actions are right not because of his loneliness. Trying to reform people who do bad things and saving those in danger are good things to do, whether you're lonely or not. His being attracted to her because of his loneliness is not wrong. Remember that those are his actions, and nothing else.

Are you in love with the bank robber and will the bank robber loving you back start making him into a decent member of the society? Then yes, you should.

I'm pointing out the lack of logic in the fandom, almost as one, wanting to see something they would hate if not for the "love" story/Luckyuro being cute

But then, is it really alright to judge this based on your viewing other people as hypocritical?

 

[Kamen Rider ShinkenRed]

I want it because a: It's possible as Torin proves, and those 2 are the only ones who could potentially change (maybe Aigaron as well). Luckyuro's been enjoying this manga the whole time and Candelira may decide top based on the events of this episode.

That said, I would like to see them dying in opposition to Deboss rather than anything else. I seem to remember you citing Go-Onger as an example of that and I seem to remember Kegaleisha and Kitaneidas came to that by realising they hated Yogoshimicritein far more than they did the Go-Ongers, and they'd rather be dead and with Yogostein having helped the Go-Onger than alive and working for his father. But the Gaiark trio did only want to be able to live on earth rather than destroying it. I can see Candelira and Luckyuro coming to a similar conclusion. Didn't the Kyoryuger suggest they could reform Luckyuro and Candelira before when they thought they were the last 2 Deboss?

 

[lazycoconut]

My point about Go-onger is that it's pretty much the most light-hearted Sentai and even it killed off the "redeemed" villains. (Go-on Green was shown to be attracted to Kegaleshia, although nothing like this episode.) However, I worry they'll have Daigo's father sacrifice himself for mandatory good guy death drama, and leave the dire duo alive ...

I'm stating the facts, not romanticizing anything.

Your view of the "facts" is as subjective as mine. We have to disagree on that one.

His actions are right not because of his loneliness. Trying to reform people who do bad things and saving those in danger are good things to do, whether you're lonely or not. His being attracted to her because of his loneliness is not wrong. Remember that those are his actions, and nothing else.

Are you in love with the bank robber and will the bank robber loving you back start making him into a decent member of the society? Then yes, you should.

If we insist on taking the "realistic" view, no, of course it wouldn't! That just can't happen!

But then, is it really alright to judge this based on your viewing other people as hypocritical?

I'd like to know how something superficial makes it magically better writing. And in what universe it's a good idea to teach kids that being cute or pretty means someone can't be evil

 

[kuroihikari]

Your view of the "facts" is as subjective as mine. We have to disagree on that one.

Lol no. He stated it explicitly. I'm saying he stated it explicitly. That's the definition of objective.

You on the other hand, are making up his reasons.

If we insist on taking the "realistic" view, no, of course it wouldn't! That just can't happen!

Too bad for you, and for him, then. Your view of love is quite... worldly.

I'd like to know how something superficial makes it magically better writing. And in what universe it's a good idea to teach kids that being cute or pretty means someone can't be evil

I can't claim it's better writing. But IMHO the relationship is well-designed that even though there's a fairy tale element, it doesn't grant the fairy tale ending. Nossan doesn't get swept off his feet at first sight and live with her in the castle. That alone makes the comparison with Disney-type stories moot.

 

[lazycoconut]

Lol no. He stated it explicitly. I'm saying he stated it explicitly. That's the definition of objective.

You on the other hand, are making up his reasons.

I'm saying would he (not Souji) have done this if he weren't attracted to Candelira?

Too bad for you, and for him, then. Your view of love is quite... worldly.

Better than finding out that the proverbial leopard does not change its spots

I can't claim it's better writing. But IMHO the relationship is well-designed that even though there's a fairy tale element, it doesn't grant the fairy tale ending. Nossan doesn't get swept off his feet at first sight and live with her in the castle. That alone makes the comparison with Disney-type stories moot.

The outcome is different but the premise the same: that gazing soppily into each other's eyes for a couple of minutes = true, lasting eternal love! I wouldn't even wish such godawful writing on Ian, who is both my least favourite Kyoryuger and the one it would be most suited to