Why is Sentai expected to take risks but Kamen Rider expected to keep convention?

[lazycoconut]

I asked this question over at the Ask.fm page for Low Visibility (Lynxara & MattComix's podcast) and they said they would address it in the future. I'm looking forward to that, but wanted to throw the subject out there because with Gaim starting it's been in my head for a while:

It seems to me that fans expect Sentai to be bold, experimental and challenge the traditional formula of the show, but they expect Kamen Rider to maintain certain elements every time and stick to the "karate bugman" image. They are harsher when they think Sentai is "playing it safe", and when they think Kamen Rider has strayed too far from what the franchise "should" be. For instance, look at the most common criticisms of Goseiger (that it's "bland", formulaic, predictable, too "safe", no creative risks taken) vs Fourze (it doesn't make much use of the iconic bikes or insect design, and people complain that it was too slapstick to be recognisable as a Kamen Rider series.) Conversely, the most commonly praised aspects of Gekiranger and Go-Busters (supposedly being fresh and different and shaking up the conventional image of Sentai) vs W (giving a modern touch to the classic Rider look and elements of Showa Rider.)

Now, why? My initial thought was that it's just what people think will make for a more "mature" and adult-appealing show: Sentai will push the envelope and look beyond its target audience of pre-schoolers, while Kamen Rider will maintain the "darker" image associated with Showa and early Heisei. But in retrospect, I'm not sure it's that clear-cut. Thoughts?

 

[Glamador]

Because people are fickle and base criticisms on either their own personal tastes or what they perceive as others' tastes in order to fit it?

What is criticism, really? It's an attempt to A) identify where quantifiable mistakes have been made in a production and B) put words to feelings of like or dislike that the reviewer felt while partaking in the media in question.

So inevitably you'll get people that are bored of Sentai formula crying for change because that's how they are trying to explain the vague feeling of dislike that they felt watching it. Conversely, you find people that wish Kamen Rider would go back to its roots acting the same way.

The other reason is that complaints always cry louder than praise. It's easier to identify what makes something bad than what makes it good. So no matter WHAT you're looking at, if you're reading a critical review, then you'll see complaints made against whatever might be perceived as a negative, whether that's contradictory between series or not.

 

[themidnighter]

It seems to me that fans expect Sentai to be bold, experimental and challenge the traditional formula of the show, but they expect Kamen Rider to maintain certain elements every time and stick to the "karate bugman" image.

...

Now, why?

People want what they don't have.

Sentai's structure is rigid and highly codified. With a few exceptions, series don't vary all that much. There's not been, historically, a lot of experimentation with form, so people crave it.

Kamen Rider is wildly different from era to era (or even series to series) and adheres to a less consistent form. The story-structure is constantly revamped, so people crave familiarity.

In either case, fans tend to want what they're not used to getting.

 

[Ivanhobe]

I think the real issue here is that both Super Sentai and Kamen Rider are shows that stick to a formula, and what makes formulaic shows appealing (at least to me) is to see how they can play around or re-invent themselves with each iteration.

*For a perfect example of how a good formulaic show must be, watch Android Kikaider*

In the case of Sentai, the show has been always constrained by a strict formula, but the best shows on the franchise are the ones who add something new or bring a different spin to old concepts; Jetman added human drama, Zyuranger created the sixth ranger tradition, Dekaranger used the weekly case concept and Shinkenger applied an old Samurai Formula to create super warriors or something.

My point is, the best SS seasons are the ones that do something unique, and the worst ones tend to be the season that do nothing remarkable, they limit themselves to follow all the tropes that have been used before and that´s why some people complain of the show being too formulaic; once you removes the uniqueness, all that´s left is the formula.

As for Kamen Rider, the problem is the polar opposite; since the beginning the franchise had a defined concept and most shows have sticked to the basic elements of what makes Kamen Rider, but in an effort to keep it relevant the franchise has reinvented itself so much that modern show do not resemble the original Kamen Rider enough, and even though they are all good shows, some of them even great, there comes a point where you can´t shake the feeling that you could remove the words "Kamen Rider" from the title and that wouldn´t change a thing.

Asides from that there is also the case of those self entitled fans that think the creators of the show owe them something and go rage-rambling if a show is not like they want it to be (as was the case with Go-Busters), but i think the world would be a better place if we just ignore those people.

 

[Toku Prime]

As for Kamen Rider, the problem is the polar opposite; since the beginning the franchise had a defined concept and most shows have sticked to the basic elements of what makes Kamen Rider, but in an effort to keep it relevant the franchise has reinvented itself so much that modern show do not resemble the original Kamen Rider enough, and even though they are all good shows, some of them even great, there comes a point where you can´t shake the feeling that you could remove the words "Kamen Rider" from the title and that wouldn´t change a thing.

I never really understood why this was a complaint. Rider needed to do this to survive. The Showa era shows were locked into their initial formula, and look what happened. Within five years it'd been booted to another channel and dropped. It was revived twice, only to falter again within a couple of years each time. Compare that to the Metal Hero series, which embraced re-inventing itself and lasted for 17 straight years. When Rider finally got the chance to take MH's timeslot, they inherited some of it's tropes, including the constant re-invention. Now we're about to enter the 15th straight year of Kamen Rider. History would suggest that the basic Rider formula wasn't capable of sustaining the franchise in the way that constant change has.

 

[shamrocknroll]

I think this goes back to another thread about sentai themes. With a team there is just more you can do than just with one or two main characters. Take for example, dinosaur or elemental themed sentai. Stuff like elements and dinosaurs weren't just one type of something, they were groups. With Sentai you can have many tropes (although I don't like that term) associated with say elements. Along with the already standard sentai tropes.

Now look at Rider. His main thing is beetles. Yes he has diverged over the years but still when an average Joe thinks of Kamen Rider he thinks about beetles. A single type of insect used for years. Look at the themes and what the response was. Den-O wasn't well-liked, Hibiki and Kabuto were pretty bad and now Wizard. All weren't beetle themed. Maybe it's just because at that important writing meeting where Sentai decided to say "Let's shake it up." Kamen Rider said "No thanks."

To me it's just the fact that Rider can't really evolve unless it wants to be Sentai-lite or at least that's how I see it.

 

[lazycoconut]

Asides from that there is also the case of those self entitled fans that think the creators of the show owe them something and go rage-rambling if a show is not like they want it to be (as was the case with Go-Busters), but i think the world would be a better place if we just ignore those people.

Well reportedly, that was the reaction of a lot of the Japanese fans - they felt that Sentai should always be for young children and that Go-Busters had tried too hard to be edgy and court an older audience (leading to the "too dark" quote from the head of Bandai.) It hasn't stopped Toei trying out some new things in Kyoryuger, but it's taught them there's at least one creative direction they can't take (for the foreseeable future) if they want commercial success. Similarly, they learned from Geki and Goseiger that they'll get a bad reaction if they try to do plots that are too villain-heavy

 

[Ivanhobe]

I never really understood why this was a complaint. Rider needed to do this to survive.

I don´t see it as a complain either, my second favorite Rider show is Den-O, and we can all agree that this is the least Rider-ish season in the franchise.

The problem here is that when you work with a formula, you need to both reinvent yourself every season/episode, but you also need to keep things within a certain framework; Sentai needs gian robots, Rider needs motorcycles and Ultraman needs rubber suits.

Basically the formula is what keeps people coming back to a show and it gives them some sense of familiarity, but the issue some have with modern Rider is that instead of reinventing its own formula, the franchise seems to be trying to ditch it completely until one day it won´t be Kamen Rider anymore, it will just be the "Generic Hero Fights Monsters to sell toys" show.

While i can agree that this mentality can be exagerated by some, i also agree with it to some degree: there are certain elements on Rider that draw me to it, namely the idea of the tragic lonely hero and the awesome bikes, and i don´t want to see those elements dissapear from the show; even if i like to see how the franchise re-invents itself, i don´t want to see it loose its identity.

Well reportedly, that was the reaction of a lot of the Japanese fans - they felt that Sentai should always be for young children and that Go-Busters had tried too hard to be edgy and court an older audience

That is what i was getting at, Go-Busters re-tool came because the japanese fans refused to accept the show on that premise, so instead of letting the franchise evolve they demanded for the tradition to be kept.

Thinking about it, the japanese culture seems to be really defined by its traditions, and after 35+ years Super Sentai has become precisely that. This can be considered good because, well, it is hard to imagine a world without Super Sentai, but it also means that a lot of people will refuse to see their tradition tempered with.

 

[lazycoconut]

I don´t see it as a complain either, my second favorite Rider show is Den-O, and we can all agree that this is the least Rider-ish season in the franchise.

Den-O was a hit for Toei, the problem came with repeating its formula until audiences got tired of it (it was still relatively fresh for W, but didn't work so well for the subsequent seasons.) So that's being changed up again with Gaim

That is what i was getting at, Go-Busters re-tool came because the japanese fans refused to accept the show on that premise, so instead of letting the franchise evolve they demanded for the tradition to be kept.

Thinking about it, the japanese culture seems to be really defined by its traditions, and after 35+ years Super Sentai has become precisely that. This can be considered good because, well, it is hard to imagine a world without Super Sentai, but it also means that a lot of people will refuse to see their tradition tempered with.

That's just it, there is really not much incentive for Toei to change things up unless profits are flagging. They know a lot of their adult fanbase prefers convention, the general image of the franchise in Japan is that it's all the same thing, and that children watch for a year or two at the most before moving onto other things. That's why they can get away with repeating themes/concepts. Look at Kyoryuger where people complain that "Utchy's intro is just like GaoSilver's!" and "it's too soon for another dinosaur Sentai!" The majority of Kyoryu's audience would not even remember the Gao and Aba tributes in Gokaiger, and hadn't been born when those shows were actually airing.

 

[Burkion]

Now look at Rider. His main thing is beetles. Yes he has diverged over the years but still when an average Joe thinks of Kamen Rider he thinks about beetles. A single type of insect used for years. Look at the themes and what the response was. Den-O wasn't well-liked, Hibiki and Kabuto were pretty bad and now Wizard. All weren't beetle themed. Maybe it's just because at that important writing meeting where Sentai decided to say "Let's shake it up." Kamen Rider said "No thanks."

Beetle?

Buddy, I think you've gotten your insects mixed up. The original Riders were Grasshoppers.