Why is everybody and their dog considered a rider these days?

The_Next!!!

Member
I was watching Ryuki and Faiz the other day when I pondered; Why isn't Apollo Geist considered a rider? He rides a motorcycle and henshins...

To get even broader, why is everybody in the new gen shows a rider? Wasn't there once a definition of what a KR was?
 

MattComix

Super Moderator
I was watching Ryuki and Faiz the other day when I pondered; Why isn't Apollo Geist considered a rider? He rides a motorcycle and henshins...

To get even broader, why is everybody in the new gen shows a rider? Wasn't there once a definition of what a KR was?

That's actually been a bone of contention for me since Ryuki. I deal with it of course but ideally at least it has an actual meaning that goes beyond being descriptive of the mask, the belt, the bike, the toys etc.

It's an assertion of the heroes humanity despite their situation. One of the best examples of this is how the Gorgom refered to Minami Kotaro as "Black Sun" and he basically says **** that noise by calling himself Kamen Rider Black. Hongo Takeshi is not Hopper Kaijin, he's Kamen Rider.

He's taking the power of a kaizo ningen, a power created for death and using it to protect life. ..and in one way or another that is what all the protagonist Riders basically do even ones who aren't kaizo ningen. Circumstance gave Shinji that deck and he could have just played the game, won it and wished for beer and hookers but he said no this wrong! I'll do this but I'm going to do it to keep the monsters from hurting people and to stop this whole stupid thing!

So for me on principle the name shouldn't be used for just any bozo with a henshin belt or any random idea for a henshin hero show that comes across the desk at Toei. Yet at the same time I can at least understand it where you have it in the premise that there is a Rider System that various characters are using. But when you have the Kamen Rider name attached to blatantly evil character or anti-heroic pricks I think to some extent at least it dilutes it.
 
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Serph

Tendou
i agree it seems like toei is just loves having more than one kamen rider in a show these days but as long as the story, characters, and plot is decent i will continue to watch it.
 

NeonZ

Active Member
I was watching Ryuki and Faiz the other day when I pondered; Why isn't Apollo Geist considered a rider? He rides a motorcycle and henshins...

Actually, I saw on 4chan a picture that had a discarded design for Apollo Geist, featuring red bug eyes... The name of that design was "Kamen Rider V9". I should have saved it for discussions like this, because now i have no way to prove it.

Anyway, it's basically what has been said. "Rider" was previously just used for the hero, it was a name the hero used for himself. Today, "Rider" is used for the system itself more often than not, not the character.

Part of this problems probably comes from the buying habits of the Japanese market. Besides a few exceptions (the Zakus from Gundam), the Japanese only buy merchandising of the "hero", so, the only way to sell products based on different characters is to have multiple variations of that "hero".

It's not just Kamen Rider, most long running franchises today that rely on merchandise sales usually feature multiple designs that use a label similar to the hero of the show, even if previously there was a tradition of a single hero (see most giant robot animes with merchandising focus).
 

HaiTien78

Member
Actually, I saw on 4chan a picture that had a discarded design for Apollo Geist, featuring red bug eyes... The name of that design was "Kamen Rider V9". I should have saved it for discussions like this, because now i have no way to prove it.

This?

2cfdysl.jpg
 

Igadevil

Mr. Kamen Rider
I've got mixed feelings about it. On the one hand, I think it's a good thing to challenge viewers sometimes, even if they get uncomfortable with it. That's what Kamen Rider did in the first place (having a "monstrous" hero with a dark origin), that's what it should keep on doing. Just because you get the powers, you don't get to be the hero. That was one of the original ideas behind Ryuki that got so much flack, showing that Kamen Rider didn't automatically equal hero. There I think the intention was noble, but the end result is mixed and later series just went a bit hog-wild with it.

On the other hand, it seriously does cheapen things. Being a Kamen Rider used to be this big deal. It's like being part of the sacred fellowship, this family of heroes. You can tell they kinda wanted to get back to that in the All Riders movie. Part of why I like Apollo Geist so much is that he isn't a Kamen Rider. He didn't need to be, because the name meant something else then. In the 70's, new villains would get the kind of coverage in a childrens' magazine that new Riders get now (this is how I know that Doktor G's hat can jump off and kill people.) I can't see that happening anymore, unless the villain is also a Rider.
 

Kenori

Member
No, just the terrible ones.

But seriously, why does it matter who's a rider? They wear masks? They ride? (mostly) whats the point?

Who are we to say "This person who wears a bug helmet and armor is better than this person who wears a bug helmet and armor"
 

Igadevil

Mr. Kamen Rider
No, just the terrible ones.

But seriously, why does it matter who's a rider? They wear masks? They ride? (mostly) whats the point?

Who are we to say "This person who wears a bug helmet and armor is better than this person who wears a bug helmet and armor"

Well, if one of them is a cold-blooded murderer who's killed a shitload of people and the other is a gentle, kind-hearted guy who puts his own life on the line to save someone he doesn't even know, there is kind of a difference there.

I think most people are smart enough to know that no matter what they say here, it changes nothing. Toei does what Toei wants.

Like I said, I'm personally split over the whole thing. I don't particularly like that someone like Arc gets to be in the same boat as the heroic Riders, because now the exclusive club o' justice is suddenly something else. Maybe it's harder to understand if you're coming into it the opposite way, but as someone who grew up with Riders = Heroes, it's a jolt to the system.

But on the other hand, I do like that as a result of that, it reminds me of just *how* good those heroic Riders truly are, because of what they did and what they were, not just because they're a Kamen Riders. I actually like being challenged like that.

Of course none of that means jack ****. I can understand that. But I see no harm in just talking about it and sharing views. If you think my opinion is terrible, that's kind of disheartening to read, but I'll live.
 

Black Fang

Active Member
That's actually been a bone of contention for me since Ryuki. I deal with it of course but ideally at least it has an actual meaning that goes beyond being descriptive of the mask, the belt, the bike, the toys etc.

It's an assertion of the heroes humanity despite their situation. One of the best examples of this is how the Gorgom refered to Minami Kotaro as "Black Sun" and he basically says **** that noise by calling himself Kamen Rider Black. Hongo Takeshi is not Hopper Kaijin, he's Kamen Rider.

He's taking the power of a kaizo ningen, a power created for death and using it to protect life. ..and in one way or another that is what all the protagonist Riders basically do even ones who aren't kaizo ningen. Circumstance gave Shinji that deck and he could have just played the game, won it and wished for beer and hookers but he said no this wrong! I'll do this but I'm going to do it to keep the monsters from hurting people and to stop this whole stupid thing!

So for me on principle the name shouldn't be used for just any bozo with a henshin belt or any random idea for a henshin hero show that comes across the desk at Toei. Yet at the same time I can at least understand it where you have it in the premise that there is a Rider System that various characters are using. But when you have the Kamen Rider name attached to blatantly evil character or anti-heroic pricks I think to some extent at least it dilutes it.

That is why I now think one thing Ryuki could have done was not call the Riders 'Riders' but something else. Shinji, upon making his choice to rebel against Kanzaki, declares himself a Kamen Rider, a name he alone comes up with. That would have been a further homage to what already was a new twist on an old formula.
 

aphroboy

Member
That is why I now think one thing Ryuki could have done was not call the Riders 'Riders' but something else. Shinji, upon making his choice to rebel against Kanzaki, declares himself a Kamen Rider, a name he alone comes up with. That would have been a further homage to what already was a new twist on an old formula.

Yeah, Shadowmoon was'nt a rider back then, but was still cool. I would definitely preferred the secondary riders for all series being called other names. Only the main riders from every heisei series are recognised as the "true" rider anyway. So why induce confusion and name every one that could henshin, whether bad or good to be Kamen Riders. You would think that if RX was a series in the 2000s, Gantenzone would probably be called kamen rider something too.
 

HaiTien78

Member
Well, if one of them is a cold-blooded murderer who's killed a shitload of people and the other is a gentle, kind-hearted guy who puts his own life on the line to save someone he doesn't even know, there is kind of a difference there.

I think most people are smart enough to know that no matter what they say here, it changes nothing. Toei does what Toei wants.

Like I said, I'm personally split over the whole thing. I don't particularly like that someone like Arc gets to be in the same boat as the heroic Riders, because now the exclusive club o' justice is suddenly something else. Maybe it's harder to understand if you're coming into it the opposite way, but as someone who grew up with Riders = Heroes, it's a jolt to the system.

But on the other hand, I do like that as a result of that, it reminds me of just *how* good those heroic Riders truly are, because of what they did and what they were, not just because they're a Kamen Riders. I actually like being challenged like that.

Of course none of that means jack ****. I can understand that. But I see no harm in just talking about it and sharing views. If you think my opinion is terrible, that's kind of disheartening to read, but I'll live.

6oki9w.jpg
 

The_Next!!!

Member
Well, if one of them is a cold-blooded murderer who's killed a shitload of people and the other is a gentle, kind-hearted guy who puts his own life on the line to save someone he doesn't even know, there is kind of a difference there.

I think most people are smart enough to know that no matter what they say here, it changes nothing. Toei does what Toei wants.

Like I said, I'm personally split over the whole thing. I don't particularly like that someone like Arc gets to be in the same boat as the heroic Riders, because now the exclusive club o' justice is suddenly something else. Maybe it's harder to understand if you're coming into it the opposite way, but as someone who grew up with Riders = Heroes, it's a jolt to the system.

But on the other hand, I do like that as a result of that, it reminds me of just *how* good those heroic Riders truly are, because of what they did and what they were, not just because they're a Kamen Riders. I actually like being challenged like that.

Of course none of that means jack ****. I can understand that. But I see no harm in just talking about it and sharing views. If you think my opinion is terrible, that's kind of disheartening to read, but I'll live.

:buttrock::buttrock::buttrock:
 

NoirSon

Another Climax
I was watching Ryuki and Faiz the other day when I pondered; Why isn't Apollo Geist considered a rider? He rides a motorcycle and henshins...

To get even broader, why is everybody in the new gen shows a rider? Wasn't there once a definition of what a KR was?


These days its the same as it was before to sell more toys, just add more riders. It is just that rather then waiting for the old riders to appear from previous seasons/series (excluding Decade) they just created multiple Riders and Rider forms.

As for Apollo Geist, he was popular or left a strong enough impression on the right people to come back in Decade. And just like Shadow Moon, bad guys that aren't called Riders at first don't need to become riders, since back in the day evil and good were more clear cut. Nowadays Riders get to flip flop.
 

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