Tsugami Shoichi or Godai Yusuke

Notice there's no vs., because this isn't really a versus thread. I just notice that these two characters have a whole lot in common and wondered who do posters think is the cooler character/hero. (If people start to turn this into Kuuga vs. Agito thread I will send both of them to your house and have them Rider Kick you in the groin. :p)

Anyways, of the two, I think Godai's a bit better. Shouichi is just as nice of a guy I guess, but he seems to overdo it and comes off as annoying sometimes. Both of them are the last of the angsty heroes until Hibiki (I think, I've never seen it, I KNOW Tendou's not angsty), but I think Godai knows just what to do and say and is more of a nice guy because that's the way his character is, as opposed to being a nice guy for comedic effect.

What's everyone else think? (And let's see if we can avoid spoilers in this thread, too.)
 

rambo

Lurker
defently kuuga even thou ive only seen 4 eps of kuuga and 9 of agito
which were both downloads godai seems better
 

MattComix

Super Moderator
I've noticed the similarties myself. Still, it's no contest, IMO.

I gotta go with Godai Yuuske. I just thought he was a much, much better character overall. He was opitmisitc but not totally invunerable to having a negative thought or emotion. But he chooses to rise above that and strive for something better in order to protect not only people lives, but their capacity to find joy. ..and even though he was a very peaceful person, I could also believe this guy was capable of handleing himself in a fight. Besides, at least a couple of those 2000 skills have to be martial arts. Godai just seemed to be a more sincere and less forced character to me. :thumbs:

Not to say that Shouichi isn't a good person and hero, but his character as written is actually one of the things I didn't like about Agito and a big reason why I found myself wishing it was G3 or Gills show.

I felt like his character was so silly to a degree where I honestly had trouble imagining that he and Agito were at all the same person. Now, I know some of that stark contrast was intentional. Sort of like Clark Kent/Superman in a way. Who would believe the clutzy wallflower is the Man of Steel, right? Or the wacky housewife guy playing with his vegetables is the mighty Agito?

But it felt less like he henshined and more like he summoned the stuntman. I just could not believe for a second that this guy could be effective. Henshin powers or not. It also often seemed to me like he was created to pander to the housewife demographic.

There were however times where I would find myself liking his scenes so I guess that helped me to enjoy the show even when I was wishing for much more camera time to go to G3 and Gills.
 

Bolt

boogie woogie feng shui
I like Godai better. He was goofy and a little more optimistic than normal, but he was still realistic enough and was genuinely a good person. There's nothing wrong with Shoichi, he just seemed like a caricature of Godai anyway.
 

Shougo B'Stard

Would like to change his avatar
Bolt said:
Shoichi...seemed like a caricature of Godai anyway.

See, I always thought Shouichi was the Godai character done properly. I still like Godai and Kuuga (the second best new-gen show), but the character stayed at pretty much one level throughout the series and Odagiri started playing him like a less-than-intelligent kid. Shouichi was as perfect as one could be, but he still had some flaws and mysteries about him and, while he liked playing the jester, I never thought he was stupid.

They went too extreme with how "perfect" Godai was and everybody just loooooved him so damn much, it often made the show feel like an overly sweet Brady Bunch episode. Sure, it tickles the heart to hear, a million times, Godai "fights for smiles," but take that away from him, and you really don't have much, do you? (Not to mention he ripped that line off a lyric in the Flashman opening theme!) I thought Shouichi had many more layers than Godai, he grew. Still, a Shouichi and Godai team-up would have been fun to see...I picture it like a lighter Zubat, where they just try to one-up each other in multiple tasks.

The next debate...Kenji Tominaga as Kuuga or Seiji Takaiwa as Agito?
 

Bolt

boogie woogie feng shui
Tominaga! Not only could he really move, he also made it feel like there was a person under all that armor (or... character) and not just a stuntguy. I did like the way Takaiwa added the subtle stuff like the kind of kobudo footwork and stance in Agito though, not to mention the way he handled the weaponswork. I don't think I know of any of Tominaga's other suited roles (if he ever did anything else in the Tokusatsu field), but I haven't seen that kind of work, from anybody, since.
 
To me, the difference between Shoichi and Godai was decided in Agito's first episode. (Even though I'm up to the point where Shoichi got his memory back.) Shoichi's first appearance, where he delivers that book or those papers (I forget which) to Mana's uncle and says he'll be cooking again and he replies: "....I'll be eating out tonight" with this look on his face like Shoichi's a real bother. Sure he doesn't act like that for the rest of the series but Godai pretty much never had a moment where people felt like he was a bother, while Tsugami had quite a few.
 

Shougo B'Stard

Would like to change his avatar
Sage Shinigami said:
Shoichi's first appearance, where he delivers that book or those papers (I forget which) to Mana's uncle and says he'll be cooking again and he replies: "....I'll be eating out tonight" with this look on his face like Shoichi's a real bother.

I don't think Shouichi was bothering him there, I think the reaction meant that (amnesiac) Shouichi didn't cook well. In those earlier episodes, there were always cracks made by the family about how poorly his food tasted until he took classes and then had his memory return where he made that awesome feast. :laugh:

That's not to say that Shouichi didn't bother some of the other characters, though -- he did. And that's another reason why I think he's an improvement of the "Godai mold." With how ultra realistic Kuuga aimed to be, with those exhausted cops and doctors, there would certainly be someone who would be agitated by a personality like Godai's, it would be overwhelming and grating after a certain point. But, nope, everybody just loved him and dropped their work to get in on all of the thumbs-up and 2,001 tricks insanity whenever he came by.

Godai and Shouichi are similar in that they want to force their happy thinking onto people and force them to be on their page, but everybody took too kindly to Godai while there were instances where they'd reject Shouichi's ideals -- even if they came to know and like Shouichi and be more attuned to his ways, it seemed much more natural how they were absorbed into the wacky world that is Shouichi and grew close to him. I found it to be too much for every single character in Kuuga to welcome Godai with open arms. I felt some should (and would) have rejected Godai, if not Kuuga...

Bolt said:
I don't think I know of any of Tominaga's other suited roles (if he ever did anything else in the Tokusatsu field)

Kuuga was his only tokusatsu work. :disappoin I don't think I could pick one over the other, honestly -- they're both different sorts of awesome. And (ironically, as we discuss the similarities of Godai and Shouichi themselves) the roles called for differences; with the realistic feel of Kuuga, Tominaga's natural and "regular" performance suited Kuuga. Letting loose of reality a tad, Takaiwa was able to make Agito more fantastic, a rock 'n roll samurai, so I can't really compare them.

If I didn't know better, I would say someone else played Agito -- I don't think Takaiwa's ever been as good before or since.
 

MattComix

Super Moderator
There were plenty of moments where people felt like Godai was a bother or at the very least strange. When he met Ichijo, he thought Godai was nothing but a reckless idiot. For some, like Ichijo Godai had to grow on them a little. The doctors first reaction to him was to ask Ichijo if he was retarted or something. The artist didn't really seem to like him much either until Godai commented on the peice he was going to submit to that company.

I always felt that the cops were so dreadily accepting because they knew he was Kuuga and Kuuga had saved their own and so many other lives. For awhile they didn't know if Kuuga was really on their side or just another one of the creatures who might try to kill them. but then he turns out to be this really nice, funny, and helpful dude.
 
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There were plenty of moments where people felt like Godai was a bother or at the very least strange. When he met Ichijo, he thought Godai was nothing but a reckless idiot. For some, like Ichijo Godai had to grow on them a little. The doctors first reaction to him was to ask Ichijo if he was retarted or something. The artist didn't really seem to like him much either until Godai commented on the peice he was going to submit to that company.

I always felt that the cops were so dreadily accepting because they knew he was Kuuga and Kuuga had saved their own and so many other lives. For awhile they didn't know if Kuuga was really on their side or just another one of the creatures who might try to kill them. but then he turns out to be this really nice, funny, and helpful dude.

Well Ichijou sort of got on Godai's side after that kick-ass second episode where he realized Godai really was serious about protecting people and not some idiot who would just do the job until it bored him or until his life was seriously in danger.

To me it wasn't that people thought he was annoying, just that he was sort of odd. And he never really forced his ideals on people, it was just that his attitude was so fun and infectious (and its easier, or at least more fun, to take his attitude than to be all serious all the time) that he grew on people.
 

MaraJade

Fear the glasses!!
I think what best appealed to me about Godai were the people he interacted with. For example, he didn't really solidify as a character, a person, and a person turned sometime hero as Kuuga until Ichijou came into the picture. However, Godai strikes me as a person that I could admire from afar, but Shouichi is someone I would want as a friend; in other words, up close and personal. Godai had some characteristic - maybe it was because he came off as TOO perfect that it became weird and quirky. In any case, Godai felt forced - perhaps it was the acting or as others have pointed out, that everyone was falling over their feet to become his friend or something.

Shouichi if I recall, cooked but had some WEIRD combinations. He'd stick a cabbage? on a cake. Don't ask me. :anime:

As for choosing between Tominaga and Takaiwa; I agree, that's really a hard one to determine because both really took their roles and ran with it in innovatingly creative and refreshing ways. There's no doubt in my mind, that after watching both, that I don't think I ever thought that they were out of so-called character. I was wholly convinced that Godai and Shouichi were under the suits, not just stuntguys.

And any particular reason why Tominaga didn't do any more tokuwork? For being a one-time deal (perhaps), he certainly left his mark. And I definitely appreciated the control both stunts exercised and exhibited in their movements, and their acting. If I do have to say one thing, I do remember thinking that Takaiwa left a more visible manisfestation of the evolution and progression of character change (as Shouichi changes) in-suit, whereas Tominaga seemed pretty stable all the way throughout, rolling with Godai's personality.

Ahh, I think I can say the difference I see btwn Godai and Shouichi. Shouichi struck me as more of a changing character - and that seemed to be both the intention and effect - Shouichi's ability to confront whatever with his personal philosophy was emphasized, but he did have to adapt. Godai on the other hand, despite his confrontations, didn't seem to have to change all that much. The last thing is Kuuga/Godai struck me more mystical/mysterious than Agito/Shouichi did overall. It's possible to explain certain things that happen to Godai in series that way, but what happens to Shouichi seem more grounded in this plane - if you get my drift.
 
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Bolt

boogie woogie feng shui
See, I always thought it was Shoichi that seemed too perfect. Sure he was clumsy and stuff (Godai was pretty absent-minded at times too), but he never even really got mad. He always just came off as unrealistically chipper. Godai was a people-person for sure, but never really to the extent where I thought to myself "that's kinda fake." There were times during Agito where, if I had been in Shoichi's place, I would've been frustrated beyond words, and he'd always just put on that same goofy smile. ^____________________^
 
See, I always thought it was Shoichi that seemed too perfect. Sure he was clumsy and stuff (Godai was pretty absent-minded at times too), but he never even really got mad. He always just came off as unrealistically chipper. Godai was a people-person for sure, but never really to the extent where I thought to myself "that's kinda fake." There were times during Agito where, if I had been in Shoichi's place, I would've been frustrated beyond words, and he'd always just put on that same goofy smile. ^____________________^

So there's no pwn moment with Shoichi like with Godai where he beats a kaijin until the mofo starts bleeding and then slices the ***** up with Flame Form? :laugh: Man, I swear--that fight, the first henshin into Mighty Form and the fight between him and Daguba--best moments in Kuuga.
 

Shougo B'Stard

Would like to change his avatar
MaraJade said:
And any particular reason why Tominaga didn't do any more tokuwork?

:shrug: I don't know if an official reason was ever given, but I'm guessing it was because he seems to be more of a traditional stuntman and not really a "suit actor" as someone like Takaiwa is. Tominaga's specialty was hand-to-hand combat and judging by the fact that he mostly just does stuntwork for regular movies now, I assume he's more...grounded in reality, for lack of a better phrase. It was just really honest casting, I think.

I seem to recall reading that he auditioned for Agito, though I could be mistaken -- take it lightly, because I'm a bit foggy on it.

Bolt said:
There were times during Agito where, if I had been in Shoichi's place, I would've been frustrated beyond words, and he'd always just put on that same goofy smile.

That's how I felt about Godai, but replace "goofy smile" with "thumbs up"! :laugh: There was only a few instances where Godai blew his top, same with Shouichi, but I thought Godai was far more at ease with unusual surroundings...everything was solved by a thumbs-up for him and especially in later episodes, they went way too far with it.

"The new chief of police now believes Number 4 is a threat and we have orders to kill on sight. Sakurako can't solve the ancient Ringo, oyassan's restaurant has violated health codes and is being shut down. Furthermore, Dr. Enokida's son has run away, Ichijou's having a family crisis, Jean has been deported, the very depressed Kanzaki-sensei contemplates suicide and students of Midori are fighting one another. *thumbs-up* 'Let's Stomp, everyone!' And with that, everyone dances."

The writing didn't help, but Odagiri's boredom ruined a lot of it, IMO. I think he started trying way too hard to mask his (supposed) boredom with the role.
 

MattComix

Super Moderator
He never stuck me as being bored with the role. Has this ever been confirmed or is it just something rumored amongst the fandom?
 

Shougo B'Stard

Would like to change his avatar
mattcomics said:
He never stuck me as being bored with the role. Has this ever been confirmed or is it just something rumored amongst the fandom?

I've read people mention that Odagiri has supposedly said he didn't have much fun working on Kuuga, he didn't like tokusatsu...it seemed pretty reliable, it was when he was beginning to get noticed for (boring) movies like Azumi and Bright Future with his star "rising," but it could still be inaccurate. :shrug: Odagiri thinks he's a real actor's actor, so I wouldn't be surprised for him to trash Kuuga in favor of his "ego work."
 

Igadevil

Mr. Kamen Rider
Shougo B'Stard said:
"The new chief of police now believes Number 4 is a threat and we have orders to kill on sight. Sakurako can't solve the ancient Ringo, oyassan's restaurant has violated health codes and is being shut down. Furthermore, Dr. Enokida's son has run away, Ichijou's having a family crisis, Jean has been deported, the very depressed Kanzaki-sensei contemplates suicide and students of Midori are fighting one another. *thumbs-up* 'Let's Stomp, everyone!' And with that, everyone dances."

:laugh:

Anyway, those who haven't seen Kuuga and don't want to know the end might want to skip the rest of this, although for Sage's sake I hid the big Agito spoiler.

I think Godai was a really nice guy, but it often felt like that was really it to him- he was awesome, he could basically do no wrong, which is why towards the end of the series when he's in danger of becoming Ultimate Form, it's such a big deal. That this seemingly wonderful guy, who is moved to tears by the violent nature of having to beat the **** out of the baddest bad guy of all, could actually become something that bad (or worse)...it's really heavy stuff. But what I mean is, Godai felt like he was so good, he was basically infallible, and when he does something like flip out and beat the snot out of the Porcupine Grongi, it's because he's Kuuga, not because he's Godai. I'll get back to this later.

I'm not saying Godai was perfect exactly, but he always came off to me as being about as pure-hearted a hero as humanly possible, and I think in the end, the kind of heroism the show really tries to get across is that Godai did more important things simply as a human being than even what he did as Kuuga. Crazy as that sounds, consider this: If you look at being Kuuga as being a burden which is taken away from him at the end, he's still the same old Godai after that. There are so many great things he did for people that didn't involve him being Kuuga. Compare this to some other Riders, who don't become heroes or even good people until they became Riders.

Although early on it felt like Shouichi and Agito were two seperate people, and humble, bumbling Shouichi would change into kickass warrior Agito, I think that started to change near the end, whereas in Kuuga it was almost the reverse: as the show goes on, it felt to me less like Godai and Kuuga are the same person. Like, as I mentioned earlier, when Kuuga defeats Go Jyaraji Da, which in turn leads to the whole Ultimate Form plotline starting up, I think that's where you really start to see the two almost becoming seperate sides of the same person. The second-to-last episode is where it all sort of clicks. Godai becomes Ultimate Form, and even though he's still good, he's almost the same as Daguba, and so powerful he can set things on fire with a wave of his hand...which is in stark contrast to peaceful Godai. And that spills over into the fight after when Godai and Daguba turn back to humans, and are basically beating each other to death. And it causes Godai to start crying. Because it's so horrible, so violent, I think he kind of has a revealation then. It struck me as a "What have I turned into?" sort of thing. Because after that? When he's back to normal? He doesn't seem to mind that he's not Kuuga anymore, and nobody else does either. They remember him best because he was Godai.

I think it was the second-to-last episodes that's titled "Kuuga", although written with the Kanji meaning "Sky/Void/Emptiness" and "Oneself". I've always thought there's some other meaning to that, in that as Kuuga, Godai always felt kind of empty- sure he said he wanted to "fight for the smiles" and all that before, but I think as the show goes on, being Kuuga becomes less of the legendary mantle it was at the start, and more of this responsibility that comes with its own catches. So when Godai stops being Kuuga at the end, he's finally "free".

It's close, but I would have to say I personally like Shouichi more because I felt the character was much deeper because of this whole approach to being a Rider. The more we learn about him and travel with him in his story, by the end, we see that he is a flawed character, even if he still tries to do his best. He's a good guy; a weird, funny guy, but he's still a flawed guy:

[HIDE]I mean, near the end of the series, he basically gives up being Agito (briefly)...on the one hand there's so much wrong with that, but I think it's also such a powerful moment for the character. He was so willing to put his neck on the line for...pretty much everybody, beforehand. Not unlike Godai. And it becomes clear fairly early down the line that being Agito is not all great either. Again, similar situation to Godai.

But, here's the kicker: he willingly tries to get it back. And he's pretty much stuck as Agito from there on out. He can't just not be Agito like Godai could stop being Kuuga. But that's okay with him, he accepts it. Even if he basically rejected what he was before, and nearly let everything go to hell (because basically, that's what was happening) he decided that he'd still keep on trying, even if he screwed up once.

That really struck a chord with me, because he's basically in the situation of the old Riders, where you can't just stop being what you are, and he chose willingly to stick with it. I know Godai didn't exactly have a choice, but like I said, it didn't seem to bug him for the reasons I already stated. He could continue on with his life without being Kuuga, whereas Shouichi realized he needed to keep being Agito, even if it wasn't what he thought he might have wanted. [/HIDE]

So even though I'd say Godai may be the better person overall, I still like Shouichi more. I like my heroes to have flaws, to have that little darker side. Not walking angst-buckets, but I feel the best heroes have that dent in their armor somewhere. Probably why Tsukuba Hiroshi (Skyrider) is my favorite Rider human alias- he's a genuinely good guy who can kick much ass, but he still screws up, he still doesn't come out on top at the end every day (I'm not talking about in the fights, but as far as the character's personal victories- I can name quite a few) I can just relate to that so much.

However, I do have to add that I think even Shouichi had to be like Godai and be little overly good at times since you have a characters like Ashihara and Kino, who are even more flawed and complex, but at the same time two of the most interesting characters in the series. It's also sort of necessary since Shouichi's really the "heart" of the Riders in Agito, and I think I might have had a different opinion about this if Godai had encountered other Riders in his show.
 
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Shougo B'Stard

Would like to change his avatar
That's an awesome description of Godai, and comparison between the two. :thumbs:

I really liked that final battle between Daguba -- so lowkey, but brutal and yet so meaningul. However, I do think they could have built more on that becoming dark plot...some seriously cool drama could have come from that if they squeezed it some more, but I guess it just wasn't in what they did with the show.

As much as I like Kuuga and Godai, I do feel that there was more that could have been done with the character and series. I suppose it was just "rustiness" out of being the first new Rider and being such a drastic departure from the norm...but I feel that Agito improved upon everything Kuuga tried to do, not only in Shouichi being an improved Godai. The only area where it didn't outdo Kuuga was in nice, violent action. :laugh: And bike stunts, of course.
 
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