The Kamen Rider Series (Past to Present) *thoughts*

[Pochi_v3]

I just wanted to know other people's thoughts and probably start a sort of new discussion between the new and past Kamen Riders. ^__^

In my direct honest opinion I do not like the new Kamen Rider series (yes i hate Fourze, OOO's was bearable but better than Fourze and W could have been great if they hadn't revived someone) Of course Decade to me was more of a homage series rather than a show but even then Decade showed more promise than Fourze (and I also liked Decade).

Before I explain my reasoning as to why I don't like the new Kamen Rider series, I believe I must explain what a "Rider" is. To me the idea of Ishinomori Shoutaro is the true form of a rider. A rider is born through sadness, sorrow, pain and loss. This was true up until Kamen Rider Black. All the Riders power were forced upon them. Although V3 volunteered to become an altered human (cyborg) Ichigo and Ni-go had no choice at the time because his body was already at the verge of destruction and death. So V3 had no choice but to become a cyborg.

The second part of what a Rider is a monster. As simple as it is and as complicated as it can get. A rider is a monster, they were created by an organization as a monster who has tremendous amount of power and non-human (cyborg). The Riders are no different than the monsters they fight, except for their reasoning. All Riders up to OOO's so far has shown this. All the Showa Era Riders were the same, created by an organization and fought against it in order to attain freedom and revenge and to save humanity. The Hesei Era still had this in tact. Kuuga - OOO's, they fought monsters that were the same as them. But what about Fourze? (I'll get back to that later).

Now the third and final part of my long rant. A rider is not naturally happy. Their whole life is changed, destroyed, and everyone sees them as monsters (This was true until W). But it is through their emotions that they are able to fight. Kamen Rider to me is the struggle to live. I loved Kamen Rider Stronger, the death of Tackle was handled with the best ending! Tackle is not an official Kamen Rider because Stronger believed that she fought enough when she was alive. Tackle deserved to die a woman. Such feelings can't even be felt in Fourze or OOO's or even W. Even Decade, he starts out with no memories and the pain of realizing his actions, his feelings, all create what a Rider is. Also all and i mean ALL the Kamen Rider series had an overwhelming feeling in which if the Rider was beaten the question "What would happen to the world!?" would come up.

So! Onto Kamen Rider Fourze. The idea was supposed to be a comedy at the start. I swallowed my pride and watched it up until the recent episode. And I hated it. After watching about 10 episodes in nothing happened. What the series is to me is more Sentai than a Rider. What bothers me the most are the reasons to fight. "To befriend someone" is generally a good reason to fight, only if it was a secondary belief. The Riders of the past fought for humanity's sake not just for their own. Then the monsters, how do they know how to fight? They are not the monsters themselves they are human who take the form of a monster after receiving a switch. So in turn they should have no knowledge to fight. So how is it that they can do acrobatics and know the parts of their monster body in less than a second? At least the other series showed that the monsters they fought have been doing for a long time before a Kamen Rider shows up; or they were honestly monsters. Fourze is human. Regardless the switches they use, they are human (until they become a star). So this means they are human with borrowed powers from a switch. If so this is the same as Fourze. Fourze is human to its most basic form. Also, in the other Rider series' if a Kamen Rider were to be beaten the question begs "What will happen to the world?" because the evil that is trying to take over the world is actually shown that they have the power to take over the world if there was no one to stop them. Fourze on the hand focuses on a high school. Only a high school, there is no urgent danger that I feel. If the organization takes over the school it wouldn't matter.

A Kamen Rider shows the dark parts of being a hero (a misunderstood hero). Take that away and all you get is just a normal hero. A hero with no reason to fight. That to me is Fourze.

I honestly loved Kamen Rider from Ichigo - Decade. W and OOO's were borderline but I do not even consider Fourze a Rider. ZX had gone through more hardships than Fourze and in the end ZX was able to fully call himself a Kamen Rider after standing up from his enemy, protecting what he loves, carrying the weight of those who he's killed and those who were killed for him. Fourze fights for friendship. That's it. There is no way to explain Fourze. Meteor even has a better backstory than Fourze.

What do you guys think?

 

[lazycoconut]

Fourze isn't the only Rider who is completely human. In the last ten years alone Shinji, Tendou, Ryoutarou and Shotaro were all human with, as you call it, "borrowed powers."

I'd also like to point out that the Zodiarts in Fourze most likely have bigger plans than taking over a school. The school is just a front to recruit students who will evolve into the twelve Horoscopes.

With regard to the Zodiarts instantly knowing how to fight, the same is true of the Dopants in W, and the only issue you've raised with that show was the resurrection. What about Mio in Kiva or Kaidou in Faiz, who suddenly gained a monster form (resulting in the loss of their humanity, unlike the Dopants and non-Horoscope Zodiarts) and yet were able to use it right away?

 

[Pochi_v3]

You have a point there.

But to me, when they attained their powers they had a rough time and later after countless encounters with monsters they accepted what they became (except for Tendou who wanted to be a rider in the beginning but for him it seemed like his mind was already set because of the events that he encountered in his past. And Ryoutaro; I honestly can't explain him. I can't necessarily say that he didn't deserve to become a Rider in the end because he did have a weird character development.) Shinji from Ryuki actually neglected his power halfway through the series. He wanted the Rider War to stop. But all of them have one thing in common. The will to fight because of their past and the current event that they are stuck in makes them a Kamen Rider.

I understand the point of the Zordiats using the High School as the breeding ground for monsters but again why? Why not try to get people who are more fit to do so? like a whole city perhaps?

Again though, good point about the W monsters, Dopants, I completely forgot about them hahaha. But again that's probably why I didn't enjoy W as much. Mio in Faiz seemed like she didn't know how to fight. This was true because she rarely fought, and when she did she already knew her abilities. Mio had already known that she was Queen. Before she entered the picture it was hinted that she knew this. Kaidou in Faiz actually knows how to fight. It was hinted that he was already an orphenoc much earlier before Faiz came into the story. He at first hated his new form, but in the end he accepted being an orphenoc. In that time he was able to understand his body to a point where he was able to fight. Kaidou didn't use his powers right away, he neglected it before Smart Brain got to him.

Sorry if you're a fan of Fourze but you have your own opinion. But to me if the series somehow changes I might reconsider calling Fourze a Rider.

 

[Painted_Outlaw]

Kaidou in Faiz actually knows how to fight. It was hinted that he was already an orphenoc much earlier before Faiz came into the story.

Have to stop you right here, it's blatantly shown that he became an Orphenoch during the series. See, that's him in the background there before he got attacked by Kiba and Osada's temporary teacher.

He at first hated his new form, but in the end he accepted being an orphenoc.

No on this too. To Kaidou, having the powers was like some dude getting a new car. Watch the episodes around 7 and 8 again, and watch how jovial he is over them. He doesn't heed Kiba or Osada's warnings over being a "monster" (even shoving them back at the latter when he sees her later, "Hey, what's wrong? Did that Kiba guy tell you to get me? What, is he scared I'll become a monster? *laughs*") and iirc, that's after he basically slid down the hallway and "phase-shifted" to Orphenoch with a smile on his face.

 

[Aoi Kurenai]

To me it feels like you're putting your ideas of what a Rider should and shouldn't be as set in stone with no room for change and that just leads to things getting stale after a while. Change is good. One of the few set rules I think a Rider should have is that he use the power of his enemies against them, and Fourze does that. And if a series comes along where this isn't done, it won't automatically make me not want to call it a Kamen Rider series.

"To befriend someone" is generally a good reason to fight, only if it was a secondary belief.

That's a good enough reason all on its own. He's trying to save people from their own despair and be a sort of light in their life when they're being rejected by the people or things they hold to be important. That's good enough reason as any to want to suit up and fight to protect people. It's noble enough and he is protecting people when others aren't willing to do so, he's the sort of hero that heads straight into trouble because he seems to believe that, at the very core, humans are all an okay bunch of people who just need a little guidance every now and then.

Fourze never struck me as a comedy, just a different take on the idea of what a Kamen Rider is. The fact that Gentarou isn't some hero born out of sadness is his gimmick, it's what makes him unique. Producer Tsukuda even said that there is a very good reason Fourze is the first Kamen Rider suit not to have any tear marks, it's a change to the formula, but he is still a Kamen Rider. This is coming from the producer who wanted to have as many visual and thematic ques to the original Kamen Rider in the form of W because a lot of the original ideas of what a Kamen Rider is resonant with him. Gentarou is just a very resolute main character, he knows what he believes and even if people adamantly reject those beliefs, he thinks it'll work out in the end and people will be able to see his side of things.

Also

What the series is to me is more Sentai than a Rider.

What does this even mean? Because the way I read it says that you think Sentai in general can't be as good as Kamen Rider or carry a lot of the same themes, when that just isn't true. There are times when certain Sentai can do certain Rider themes even better than some Rider shows out there.

A Kamen Rider shows the dark parts of being a hero (a misunderstood hero). Take that away and all you get is just a normal hero. A hero with no reason to fight. That to me is Fourze.

You get a hero with different reasons to fight, it doesn't mean their reasons don't exist. Heroes aren't always born out of tragedy and it's nice to see this be reflected every now and then in tokusatsu, it doesn't make them any less of a hero. Of the things that one could be fighting for, friendship isn't exactly the lowest one on the list.

I understand the point of the Zordiats using the High School as the breeding ground for monsters but again why? Why not try to get people who are more fit to do so? like a whole city perhaps?

Because people ask too many questions. Recently we've seen that the police actually went to the school and started asking Gamou about the monster attacks of late and he had to erase their memories, it probably isn't something he can do on a large scale. Having the school be his testing ground means he can pretty much look at these candidates under a magnifying glass and judge for himself just how ready they are to become a Zodiart.

 

[Pochi_v3]

Well again this is *my opinion* on this. I can't necessarily say I'm right nor will I try proving it.
Everyone here so far put very believable ideas and corrected me as well showing my faults. And all i can say is that those were my opinions on Kamen Rider. I got those ideas from reading Kamen Rider Spirits by the way. But now after proving me wrong I want to hear everyone's thoughts on the changes that's been made.

I honestly don't wanna drone out my beliefs here because it would seem that I would become an enemy to the community. So I admit I've been proven wrong on the occasion of Kaidou and his origin. But I will say that the reason why I believe this idea of a Kamen Rider is because I read it off of a manga that was meant to end the 10 first Riders.

I might reconsider Fourze in its later episodes but as of now, unfortunately I'll be a Showa Rider Elitist.

 

[Smilodon]

OOO and Double had plenty of moments of darkness and despair though. Of course, that was in the latter half of the series. Hell, A-Z was pretty dark, and thinking about it in retrospect, OOO has tons of horror undertones throughout the series. I'm sure the tragedy of the Sonozaki's, the death of Kirihiko, Ryu's family, the rise and fall of Daidou Katsumi, Phillp and Ankh are just as moving as the death of Tackle. Eiji, Shotaro and Phillip all deal with the death of someone close to them (or in Eiji's case, many deaths), so it's not like they're all happy go lucky.

OOO was seen as a monster of infinite power in the wrong hands, while in comparison, Ryuki, Blade, Hibiki and Kabuto were never seen as monsters ever, instead as heroes. Of course, there are exceptions, with Asakura, Shuki, Chalice etc. Fourze uses Astro Switches, the Zodiarts uses Astro Switches.

We don't even know how Fourze will end yet. We're only half way through, so we'll know soon enough whether Gen has some burden upon him that compels him to take on the mantel of Fourze.

 

[Matrix]

Personal opinions on Kamen Rider is i thoroughly enjoy most of the series if not all (me and Kuuga don't see eye to eye). I am behind on Fourze so I cannot make an argument there. But even with Phillip being revived, W was still an awesome series. It went away from the traditional Rider story while keeping in the parameters of the Kamen Rider traditiong (contradicted myself there I know just work with me). The 'two in one kamen rider' was one of the best ideas Toei had. The majority of the fans disliked the idea when early scans and rumors eroded. But it worked out beautifully.

OOOs did the same thing as W, going away a little bit from the kamen Rider tradition while staying within it, having an enemy Ankh, use someone to basically do the dirty work for him to regain his ultimate power to rule the world. And also, went back and paid a little homage to my favorite rider series 555 making Eiji a Greed, as Takumi was an Orphenoch. So I am a little biased there.

My first Rider series was Ryuki, so I have been a Heisei person for awhile. Not very knowledgeable about the showa era next to Black and Black RX and the movies in the 90s.

Just my opinion. And I would say to open you mind a little more, cause as Aoi said, you kinda just keeping yourself in a locked closet and not letting yourself see the rest of the room.

 

[Khaiden]

SPIRITS is a great source to base your opinions from. It explains a lot of plotholes and unanswered questions.

I'd like to know what you think of all the other ''secondary'' characters that get called Kamen Riders.

Before I explain my reasoning as to why I don't like the new Kamen Rider series, I believe I must explain what a "Rider" is. To me the idea of Ishinomori Shoutaro is the true form of a rider. A rider is born through sadness, sorrow, pain and loss. This was true up until Kamen Rider Black. All the Riders power were forced upon them. Although V3 volunteered to become an altered human (cyborg) Ichigo and Ni-go had no choice at the time because his body was already at the verge of destruction and death. So V3 had no choice but to become a cyborg.

The second part of what a Rider is a monster. As simple as it is and as complicated as it can get. A rider is a monster, they were created by an organization as a monster who has tremendous amount of power and non-human (cyborg). The Riders are no different than the monsters they fight, except for their reasoning. All Riders up to OOO's so far has shown this. All the Showa Era Riders were the same, created by an organization and fought against it in order to attain freedom and revenge and to save humanity. The Hesei Era still had this in tact. Kuuga - OOO's, they fought monsters that were the same as them. But what about Fourze? (I'll get back to that later).

In my opinion, someone gets the name of ''Kamen Rider'' from the desire to rebel against their enemies, to bring a new light into what they are, and deny whatever their enemies might call them, kind of like saying they are a wild card that is going to destroy them.
For instance, the best example, Black:
''You are Black Sun''
''No, I am Kamen Rider... BLACK!''

Which leads to your second point. They don't necessarily have to be a monster, or fight the enemies with the same technology (though it helps a lot), all he needs is a connection with them and to be considered something they don't want to be. I'll give you OOO:
''You are the Greeed King, the one with no desires, who will absorb everything from this world''
''No, I am OOO... Kamen Rider OOO''
Not an actual dialogue in the show but you get the point.

Or Decade:
''Destroyer of Worlds, someone with no story... that is who you are''
''No, I am Kamen Rider''

Now the third and final part of my long rant. A rider is not naturally happy. Their whole life is changed, destroyed, and everyone sees them as monsters (This was true until W). But it is through their emotions that they are able to fight. Kamen Rider to me is the struggle to live. I loved Kamen Rider Stronger, the death of Tackle was handled with the best ending! Tackle is not an official Kamen Rider because Stronger believed that she fought enough when she was alive. Tackle deserved to die a woman. Such feelings can't even be felt in Fourze or OOO's or even W. Even Decade, he starts out with no memories and the pain of realizing his actions, his feelings, all create what a Rider is. Also all and i mean ALL the Kamen Rider series had an overwhelming feeling in which if the Rider was beaten the question "What would happen to the world!?" would come up.

They've all shown they are willing to put their happiness aside in order to defend humanity for eternity if need be.

And as to your points with Fourze, they've already been answered. Basically, it's very likely the Zodiarts have a bigger agenda (they were just unlucky enough to get a Rider in the middle while they were still developing) and as for the backstory of Gentaro, we'll have to wait and see. To me, he's perfect for a Rider, just like what I said above, he's the type of guy who would sacrifice himself for the sake of others.

 

[Sentaifan'07 Xman]

Well, for most of the Rider shows that I have seen. I think that only Agito and Faiz had built on the perspective to how the concept of what a Kamen Rider is supposed to be. Ryuki, Kabuto, Den-O, and OOO seemed to been somewhat of someone not actually wanting to be considered a monster to others because they are either out of placed or whose minds were already set to have this wanted power.

Now Hibiki and Blade, it was probably the motives of the organizations wanting to assist the Riders defeating the monsters by providing the equipments and weapons. Kiva and OOO did the same thing in some parts (Example: Aozora Association for IXA and Kougami Foundation for OOO and Birth)

Where as Kiva, he know he was born half-human/half-monster so he was given a "Birth right"-like power. Decade, well it wasn't more of an anniversary, but like retelling of different Rider shows in one show and less focus on character developments.

Now I have to agree on the Decade and Post-Decade era part, I mean the Riders weren't meant to be happy, but more of going through their struggle of regaining their humanity. The Post-Decade era to Fourze, failed to do that. Now, I am not sure how well Fourze will work, but I hope that the next Rider show after Fourze will fix it.