The importance of Showa-era Kamen Rider/Sentai

[Medivh]

Basically this is a question that's been rattling around in my head since I became a fan of the franchises and began reading places like now defunct JapanHero, and then later here.

Everywhere I go there seems to be this reverence towards the Showa era. Some fans even go so far as to tell new fans or viewers to watch everything Showa that they can get their hands on before watching Heisei stuff.

Now, before we go too much farther I wanna drag out the fire extinguisher for a moment and explain that no, I don't particularly hate Showa. Nor do I want to incite anyone to hate it. I'm not saying it's bad or anything else.

I'm just...wondering why so much emphasis and importance is placed upon it. Admittedly, it's the beginning of the franchise. It introduces the basic concepts of the belt, the bike, and other themes and motifs that appear throughout every series, Showa and beyond. Furthermore you're not hampered by rampant merchandising, with gadgets, multiple forms, movies up the yin-yang, and all that other madness. Not to mention the special effects aren't exactly up to the same par of current, so ostensibly the narrative had to be strong to fill in the gaps.

I understand and appreciate all that, but...here's where I'm lost: Outside of Decade, (insert mental image of the now classic Narutaki 'ONORE DECAAAAAAADE!' yell here as you read) and to a lesser extent Kuuga and Agito...none of the serieses are really connected currently.

Furthermore I don't think, outside of themes, motifs, and being able to see the evolution (or de-evolution, depending on who you ask) of the franchise, there's no connection between the Showa and Heisei era aside from, well...you-know-who. Which he....basically doesn't count.

Now, I'll admit I came into Kamen Rider with Kabtuo. I didn't watch much of it beyond three or four episodes because it lost me. It felt like it took itself way too seriously and it just felt like a train-wreck. Perhaps not quite as bad as the train-wreck of two serieses afterward, but you get the idea. Yeah, I remember watching ZO and Shin, I also read Kamen Rider Spirits. I remember watching the final, climactic battle between Black and Shadow Moon. Mostly because that was all I could find of Black when I searched for it.

It was damn good, sure. But I felt no hugely profound moment from it. Furthermore my knowledge didn't feel like it was incomplete or anything without having seen the old stuff after I'd been exposed to it. Sure, if TV-N or someone decided that, maybe as an anniversary show, they'd sub Black or RX, I'd give it a watch. But I don't feel like I HAVE to watch it. I'm just not compelled. I wasn't then, and I'm not now.

Again, this isn't a knock at Showa or anything, but it makes me wonder: For those who do place importance on it, what is that importance? As I said before, there's no canon linking the old and new stuff outside of Mr. Pretty-in-Pink and the Blue Boy sidekick. and most if not all of us don't count that.

So what's the point here? Is this nostalgia demanding it? Is there something people like me who come in during Heisei and don't watch Showa much if at all just...miss? What's the logic here?

 

[dchoc]

The reason, at least for me, about folks saying or urging newbies to watch the Showa riders is for nostalgia as well as there are certain points in the Hesei stories that reflect those seen from the Showa... Example, Kamen Rider Joker was a not to Black/RX, OOO ShaUTa was a nod to Biorider, etc... Some of the dialogues would even have references to the past. And like in KR DCD, you'll get to see some of the Showa stuff, though it's not as good if you saw the actual Showa series... :thumbs:


EDIT: Just keep an open mind. There have some Showa series that I've not seen as well but will probably do in the future. I still have a life to live.. :laugh:

 

[Medivh]

The reason, at least for me, about folks saying or urging newbies to watch the Showa riders is for nostalgia as well as there are certain points in the Hesei stories that reflect those seen from the Showa... Example, Kamen Rider Joker was a not to Black/RX, OOO ShaUTa was a nod to Biorider, etc... Some of the dialogues would even have references to the past. And like in KR DCD, you'll get to see some of the Showa stuff, though it's not as good if you saw the actual Showa series... :thumbs:


EDIT: Just keep an open mind. There have some Showa series that I've not seen as well but will probably do in the future. I still have a life to live.. :laugh:

I'll agree that the nods are a valid point, but playing the devil's advocate for a moment, the first thing that comes to my mind is: Does NOT knowing that that's a nod to Black or Biorider or whoever detract from the experience?

For a series like Decade, I'll agree that having broad knowledge only helps. But on the flipside, doesn't it hurt too? So much anticipation was built up when people saw that Kuuga was the first world in Decade. Then, when the helmet came off and revealed an actor OTHER than Joe Odagiri, the groan of disgust from disappointed fans could have been heard 'round the world. Strangely, Toei must be tone-deaf. But enough of my blatant exaggeration. You get the point. Decade was fun, and I can safely say that it was a fanboy romp that I enjoyed much more because I had wide knowledge of the franchise, but at the same time even I was disappointed at the changes and the general train-wreck-itude of the series.

It's a nod and a wink, but do we really need to know that if we still enjoy it no matter what?

EDIT: and I know what you mean about the life bit. Fortunately or un, depending on how you look at it, a semi-tedious job 5 days a week gives me time to think on these matters.

 

[Aoi Kurenai]

I don't really think there's too much nostalgia about it, at least that's not the case for me. I saw a ton of Heisei Rider shows before I saw a complete Shouwa series. (and I'm only 22, so I don't think I can be blamed of wearing nostalgia goggles) I don't exactly place this massive importance upon the Shouwa era of shows, it's just an era that I tend to enjoy more. (except V3. Omg. I think I'm the only person in the world who does not enjoy that show) The filming, the narrative drive, even the acting were all products of a different time, so it's really interesting to get a glimpse into the past. More than that, most of the time I just so happen to end up liking it more than I like current shows.

I think the case with most people is that they just want you to see the roots of the show, I can certainly see that being a bit more valid with Sentai, but Kamen Rider is a whole different beast. The morals and themes are basically all the stayed the same, the motifs and construction of the series change radically from one era to another. I think it's neat to be able to see and appreciate both for what they are, but I don't think there's really a list of necessary viewing for older stuff because, yeah, it's neat to see the evolution of tokusatsu, but nine times out of ten, it won't hamper your enjoyment of newer shows if you don't.

To me it just seems like there are some people who don't see it as such, and that's perfectly fine, different strokes and all. Whenever I urge people to watch a Shouwa series, it's not because of the historical context (well, not totally), it's because I genuinely enjoy the show and think it's a lot of fun. The Black/Shadowmoon fight would have been hugely more meaningful with the entire series viewed, it's the end result of something that had been building since the first episode. Though I think the general historical importance there was that most people see Shadowmoon as the first evil "Rider". (poor Shocker Riders, never going to get their day) So I suppose it really just depends on the person, some will want you to watch it just because it's old and some because they like it as a product of its time, something that wasn't truly historical when it aired.

 

[NeonZ]

I understand and appreciate all that, but...here's where I'm lost: Outside of Decade, (insert mental image of the now classic Narutaki 'ONORE DECAAAAAAADE!' yell here as you read) and to a lesser extent Kuuga and Agito...none of the serieses are really connected currently.

Didn't you just say that there are connections between the shows? Yes, their stories generally aren't related, aside from a few minor connections in the post Decade shows (like the movie crossovers and participations or OOO's Core Medals appearing in W episode 48), but I don't see how that means that there aren't connections.

A translation of an interview with Double's producers was posted here and they talked about some elements of the design which were made just to acknowledge the first two Riders, like the main colors and scarf.

It was and is still the same franchise, so comparisons to its origin and early series should be expected, even if there aren't story connections. Even in the Showa era, those connections sometimes just amounted to a non-Rider recurring character popping up (like in Amazon and Super-1, with Tachibana and Genjiro).

Now, I agree that it's silly saying that one needs to watch earlier shows before going for a newer one. But that isn't the same as comparing them for other reasons.

In any case, nowadays, Toei tries to remind everyone that it's a single franchise more than ever in both merchandising and movies. We're getting a new movie with Rider 1, 2 and V3 as part of the main cast, after all. The tv shows are basically the only aspect of the franchise that are still standalone.

 

[dchoc]

I'll agree that the nods are a valid point, but playing the devil's advocate for a moment, the first thing that comes to my mind is: Does NOT knowing that that's a nod to Black or Biorider or whoever detract from the experience?

For a series like Decade, I'll agree that having broad knowledge only helps. But on the flipside, doesn't it hurt too? So much anticipation was built up when people saw that Kuuga was the first world in Decade. Then, when the helmet came off and revealed an actor OTHER than Joe Odagiri, the groan of disgust from disappointed fans could have been heard 'round the world. Strangely, Toei must be tone-deaf. But enough of my blatant exaggeration. You get the point. Decade was fun, and I can safely say that it was a fanboy romp that I enjoyed much more because I had wide knowledge of the franchise, but at the same time even I was disappointed at the changes and the general train-wreck-itude of the series.

It's a nod and a wink, but do we really need to know that if we still enjoy it no matter what?

EDIT: and I know what you mean about the life bit. Fortunately or un, depending on how you look at it, a semi-tedious job 5 days a week gives me time to think on these matters.

In my opinion, no, it does not take anything else away from the current series.. Like I mentioned, keeping an open mind makes it work. I also don't try to compare the different series, though I do have a favorite. I try to treat each one as something that doesn't have any tie-ins to the others and just like what you mentioned, enjoy it. :thumbs:

@NeonZ: FYI: Not everybody reads the interviews. Some folks just try to watch the shows. :laugh:

But I do agree, specially with the upcoming release of the 40th Anniversary movie...

 

[Igadevil]

A lot of it is simply the "I like this, you should like it too!" factor. Read any number of the "What series should I watch?" or "What show should I watch next?" threads and most of the responses will be people recommending their favorite shows or what they think is a good "first" show (which they generally also happen to like.) If your favorite shows is (show name), of course you want more people to watch it because it's great and ideally they'll like it too. While nostalgia can come into it, I also think when the show was made is basically irrelevant. My favorite series is the original Kamen Rider, it's been my favorite for years but even watching it again now, with a more critical eye, it still holds up for me. That will always be my first recommendation. However, I also recommend watching everything made since. Every Rider series is worth watching once, IMHO.

There is the historical context, i.e. there would be no (show name) without the success of (show name), but I think it's less about watching the old stuff "because you should" or "to show respect" or whatever, and simply because it's good stuff. If you allow yourself to get into it, to understand that it's a product of its time and that it is literally the great-grandaddy of the show on TV now, it holds up well and can be a lot of fun to watch. I think V3's a damn good show, as good as they used to say (it's one of the few shows for me that actually lived up to the hype it used to get, though rewatching it has helped.) I can watch it back-to-back with any of the newer stuff, and it feels like it's all got the same DNA deep down.

When it comes to the references/nods/continuity stuff, I think that while it is most enjoyable if you can catch all that stuff, it's not essential. You can watch Decade having seen no other Rider series and still enjoy it. I think you'll enjoy it more if you have seen the others, but that's simply because of the nature of the show; likewise I think Kamen Rider Spirits, while enjoyable to a new fan, becomes even more fun when you know who Ruriko is or why it's so exciting to see V3 in Egypt fighting cyborg mummies. You can still read it having not seen any of the old Riders and enjoy it, though there are a lot of the punch-the-air moments that longtime fans will pick up immediately. Even the silly S.P.I.R.I.T.S. team look kinda cool because I know where their costume designs came from!

I forgot where I was going with this so yeah. Hopefully that kinda answered it.

 

[Medivh]

Didn't you just say that there are connections between the shows? Yes, their stories generally aren't related, aside from a few minor connections in the post Decade shows (like the movie crossovers and participations or OOO's Core Medals appearing in W episode 48), but I don't see how that means that there aren't connections.

A translation of an interview with Double's producers was posted here and they talked about some elements of the design which were made just to acknowledge the first two Riders, like the main colors and scarf.

It was and is still the same franchise, so comparisons to its origin and early series should be expected, even if there aren't story connections. Even in the Showa era, those connections sometimes just amounted to a non-Rider recurring character popping up (like in Amazon and Super-1, with Tachibana and Genjiro).

Now, I agree that it's silly saying that one needs to watch earlier shows before going for a newer one. But that isn't the same as comparing them for other reasons.

In any case, nowadays, Toei tries to remind everyone that it's a single franchise more than ever in both merchandising and movies. We're getting a new movie with Rider 1, 2 and V3 as part of the main cast, after all. The tv shows are basically the only aspect of the franchise that are still standalone.

True, I do admit that in themes and motifs there are connections, but the difference is that when some people talk about Showa, they talk about it like you NEED to watch it. Like your education is incomplete without it. Typically an attitude like that is natural when you have a franchise that has a long continuity that's important to understanding what's going on. For Kamen Rider, that's not so. Story-wise, there's no connection between the two eras. Naturally excluding crossover movies, since those, depending on who you ask, are non-canon anyway.

I'm not saying it's a good or a bad thing for it all to become intertwined and story continuity established, but at this point, for someone who's just getting into things, it's not a necessity to watch things....'in order' so to speak. In the future that may change, but for now it just adds to your enjoyment of the franchise. I'm just saying that what makes me scratch my head is why some treat it as a REQUIREMENT to watch the old stuff when, when you get down to brass tacks, the new viewer who watches Double doesn't need to know Kuuga, or Black, or anyone else really.

 

[NeonZ]

True, I do admit that in themes and motifs there are connections, but the difference is that when some people talk about Showa, they talk about it like you NEED to watch it. Like your education is incomplete without it.

I don't see many people like that, but I agree with you. Heck, even if there was still Showa-like continuity to the series, I'd still say that there's no need to watch every previous series. Do it if you enjoy them, not just to "be educated". The shows were all made to be standalone, even if there's a crossover, it's usually made in a way that a new viewer won't be lost.

Naturally excluding crossover movies, since those, depending on who you ask, are non-canon anyway.

The crossovers with Double have all been referenced outside of the crossover features themselves, so they're all canon/in continuity. At least, with Double itself ( - although the last one, Movie Wars Core, still hasn't been acknowledged nor can fit into any point of OOO in the past, it has been referenced in Double's upcoming sequel movies already, with Terui and Akiko's marriage).

 

[Daikamonohashi]

I think it may partly be a kneejerk reaction to the scores of fans who outright reject the Showa series as being bad or inferior to anything modern. One wants to head new fans off early and get them to appreciate the great stuff that was made in the 50s, 60s, 70s, 80s, etc. before they can fall into that trap. I know I've gotten that feeling in my gut before.