I liked him when he wasn't a god
Joined
Aug 15, 2009
Messages
10,380
Frankly I think the all members fighting the final villain trope is stupid and sends a bad message. Have an annoying person doing things you don't like? Gang up on him and beat him up. I'm glad Kyoryuger didn't do that. Dairanger also pretty much had Ryou fighting Sadam one-on-one.

It's blatantly NOT about bullies "ganging up on an annoying person" - unless you consider a genocidal empire to be a mildly annoying inconvenience. The place for a lone hero/star is in Kamen Rider, not Sentai (and yes, it did annoy me when Dairanger did that, but at least Ryou had something genuinely worth showcasing i.e. Keiichi Wada's martial arts skills)

In fairness to Kobayashi, she does play blatant favourites with some characters. Not usually the Red, and not to the extent of Kyoryuger, but you can guarantee that if the team features her stock "big sister/brother" figure that they'll get a lot of attention and be portrayed in a more favourable light than other characters
 
Member
Joined
Apr 13, 2011
Messages
3,134
It's blatantly NOT about bullies "ganging up on an annoying person" - unless you consider a genocidal empire to be a mildly annoying inconvenience. The place for a lone hero/star is in Kamen Rider, not Sentai (and yes, it did annoy me when Dairanger did that, but at least Ryou had something genuinely worth showcasing i.e. Keiichi Wada's martial arts skills)

When it's just the leader (or one of the MOTWs), it's ganging up on a person, regardless of the altruism of the motives. Typically in the real world, when faced in that situation the enemy is forced to submit because of the numbers, but in Sentai ending the fight with "badass leader surrenders" doesn't work. So we get "badass leader gets murdered by a group of people" instead, which is basically summary execution.

Now, when we're given the martial artists in Gekiranger and Dekaranger, or the "Shijou Saikyou no Brave" in Kyoryuger, defeating the final enemy one-on-one flows more into the theme.
 
I liked him when he wasn't a god
Joined
Aug 15, 2009
Messages
10,380
When it's just the leader (or one of the MOTWs), it's ganging up on a person, regardless of the altruism of the motives. Typically in the real world, when faced in that situation the enemy is forced to submit because of the numbers, but in Sentai ending the fight with "badass leader surrenders" doesn't work. So we get "badass leader gets murdered by a group of people" instead, which is basically summary execution.

Now, when we're given the martial artists in Gekiranger and Dekaranger, or the "Shijou Saikyou no Brave" in Kyoryuger, defeating the final enemy one-on-one flows more into the theme.

It's not "ganging up" on anyone, nor summary execution. In a well written Sentai, the team are equal in strength and power (i.e. NOT "Red is the strongest and bravest and the one chosen by destiny!!!"), so one on one wouldn't be a fair fight - no one would be strong enough to defeat the villain alone.

Although given Sanjo's recent comments about how Ohmori insisted Drive have only one main Rider and wanted "a hero who could stand up to anything on his own", I wonder how much of Kyoryu's focus on Daigo was Ohmori vs Sanjo. Ohmori seems like someone who wants to make shows where there's an obvious hero and superstar and everyone else is a sidekick, while Sanjo wrote W which showcased the teamwork between Shotaro and Philip (and to a lesser extent Akiko and Terui with them)
 
Active Member
Joined
Mar 16, 2006
Messages
4,996
Frankly I think the all members fighting the final villain trope is stupid and sends a bad message. Have an annoying person doing things you don't like? Gang up on him and beat him up. I'm glad Kyoryuger didn't do that.

but what you did not realize that this has been happening in Sentai since the day it started. what you also DID NOT realize is that they purposely make the team weak even when they work together and the monster stronger because they DID NOT want the audience to think the heroes were ganging up on the monster and being bullies. by the way, this has been confirmed in an interview by the actors of Akaranger and Aoranger.

I don't mind if Red is still going to end up fighting the final villain alone, as long as his teammates were also there with him until the end and not elsewhere doing their own thing. and your comment of "wanting to see Sanjo writing another Sentai just to see how non-Japanese fans would go berserk" is just so, so dickish. really, it's uncalled for. but to avoid infraction, I'm just going to stop here.
 
Member
Joined
Apr 13, 2011
Messages
3,134
It's not "ganging up" on anyone, nor summary execution. In a well written Sentai, the team are equal in strength and power (i.e. NOT "Red is the strongest and bravest and the one chosen by destiny!!!"), so one on one wouldn't be a fair fight - no one would be strong enough to defeat the villain alone.

From the Sentai I've seen there was not a single one where everyone was of equal strength.

Regardless, Kyoryu wasn't written with Daigo and Deboss being a fair fight. Fairness doesn't simply come with physical strength, but also with circumstance. They had to go through hell (for some of them, literally) to get there.

I think that sends a better message, because in real life, when there's a challenge that's seemingly insurmountable, sometimes combining your strengths to challenge it is not enough. The answer is finding and executing the proper plan that will give you the most chance of success. And yes, sometimes only one person gets the spotlight, but as long as you all acknowledged what you did as a team, then that's fine.

but what you did not realize that this has been happening in Sentai since the day it started. what you also DID NOT realize is that they purposely make the team weak even when they work together and the monster stronger because they DID NOT want the audience to think the heroes were ganging up on the monster and being bullies. by the way, this has been confirmed in an interview by the actors of Akaranger and Aoranger.

I know that happens that's why I call it a trope.

Regardless, Kyoryu is not alone in this, so clearly the idea is NOT the metaphor that five people beating on one person means teamwork, but the more general idea of teamwork itself. I think the former is falling back on the trope (i.e. it's lazy as hell) and is done to showcase action more than the lesson itself. And in terms of showcasing the lesson, I thought Kyoryu did just fine.

I don't mind if Red is still going to end up fighting the final villain alone, as long as his teammates were also there with him until the end and not elsewhere doing their own thing.

Whew, and here I thought you were talking about Kyoryuger, because that didn't happen there at all.

and your comment of "wanting to see Sanjo writing another Sentai just to see how non-Japanese fans would go berserk" is just so, so dickish. really, it's uncalled for. but to avoid infraction, I'm just going to stop here.

Seeing as neither of Sanjo writing nor fans going berserk is under my control, I don't see how that's my fault. Still, I'm sorry if it caused any offense.
 
Last edited:
I liked him when he wasn't a god
Joined
Aug 15, 2009
Messages
10,380
From the Sentai I've seen there was not a single one where everyone was of equal strength.

Regardless, Kyoryu wasn't written with Daigo and Deboss being a fair fight. Fairness doesn't simply come with physical strength, but also with circumstance. They had to go through hell (for some of them, literally) to get there.

I think that sends a better message, because in real life, when there's a challenge that's seemingly insurmountable, sometimes combining your strengths to challenge it is not enough. The answer is finding and executing the proper plan that will give you the most chance of success. And yes, sometimes only one person gets the spotlight, but as long as you all acknowledged what you did as a team, then that's fine. Michael Schumacher didn't win all those driver trophies by himself, and that we don't know anyone else on his team doesn't mean they're a crappy one. That's the type of teamwork that we'll see in real life.

Michael Schumacher is an individual sportsman with support staff (comparable to a Kamen Rider and his supporting cast, if we're using that analogy.) A Sentai team is more comparable to a sports team where there may be a captain/leader but they work together and perform as a collective unit. You can play to individual strengths at different times without giving one person the main spotlight and designating him as The Hero; that's why I liked ToQger's episode about the team acknowledging what each one is good at and each taking a different title of "leader"
 
Member
Joined
Apr 13, 2011
Messages
3,134
You can play to individual strengths at different times without giving one person the main spotlight and designating him as The Hero;

More often than not, you can also forget glory altogether (doesn't matter who has it) for a better chance of success. It doesn't make it any worse.

So someone else in your team got the spotlight. Is it his fault? No. Is it anyone's fault? No. Was that person being an arrogant douche about it? Not really. Why should it matter, then? It really shouldn't. Is this a situation we'll have to face ourselves in real life? Hell yeah. That's how I look at it.
 
I liked him when he wasn't a god
Joined
Aug 15, 2009
Messages
10,380
More often than not, you can also forget glory altogether (doesn't matter who has it) for a better chance of success. It doesn't make it any worse.

So someone else in your team got the spotlight. Is it his fault? No. Is it anyone's fault? No. Was that person being an arrogant douche about it? Not really. Why should it matter, then? It really shouldn't. Is this a situation we'll have to face ourselves in real life? Hell yeah. That's how I look at it.

So what you're suggesting is that a fight with any more than one against one is at best akin to school bullying ("ganging up"), at worst more like terrorism ("execution") and it is unrealistic to have 3-6 people working together with equal responsibility and roles; the only logical, reasonable, and responsible approach is one where there is a lone designated hero and everyone else just accepts their role as his sidekicks/support because at least they took part in the race even though he was the only possible winner.

Why do we need Sentai at all, then, when we already have Kamen Rider?
 
Member
Joined
Apr 13, 2011
Messages
3,134
So what you're suggesting is that a fight with any more than one against one is at best akin to school bullying ("ganging up"), at worst more like terrorism ("execution") and it is unrealistic to have 3-6 people working together with equal responsibility and roles; the only logical, reasonable, and responsible approach is one where there is a lone designated hero and everyone else just accepts their role as his sidekicks/support because at least they took part in the race even though he was the only possible winner.

No, the only logical, reasonable, and responsible approach is thinking of a plan that has the best chance of working, executing it properly, and not really worrying about who gets the spotlight. But of course, this is Sentai, so not being logical is excusable.

And like I said, I know the metaphor of the all vs. 1 fight, but it still IS technically ganging up. The idea slightly disturbs me (even though I'm used to it) because there is a better way to show teamwork.

Why do we need Sentai at all, then, when we already have Kamen Rider?

Why do we need any TV show at all?
 
Last edited:
Active Member
Joined
Mar 16, 2006
Messages
4,996
that's why I liked ToQger's episode about the team acknowledging what each one is good at and each taking a different title of "leader"

I agree. there's hardly a moment where Right is doing all the work. even if he does want to shoulder it alone, his teammates will never say "yes" and they'll do it together.
 
Top