Ressha Sentai ToQger Station 34 "Love Furor"

lazycoconut

I liked him when he wasn't a god
Frankly I think the all members fighting the final villain trope is stupid and sends a bad message. Have an annoying person doing things you don't like? Gang up on him and beat him up. I'm glad Kyoryuger didn't do that. Dairanger also pretty much had Ryou fighting Sadam one-on-one.

It's blatantly NOT about bullies "ganging up on an annoying person" - unless you consider a genocidal empire to be a mildly annoying inconvenience. The place for a lone hero/star is in Kamen Rider, not Sentai (and yes, it did annoy me when Dairanger did that, but at least Ryou had something genuinely worth showcasing i.e. Keiichi Wada's martial arts skills)

In fairness to Kobayashi, she does play blatant favourites with some characters. Not usually the Red, and not to the extent of Kyoryuger, but you can guarantee that if the team features her stock "big sister/brother" figure that they'll get a lot of attention and be portrayed in a more favourable light than other characters
 

kuroihikari

Member
It's blatantly NOT about bullies "ganging up on an annoying person" - unless you consider a genocidal empire to be a mildly annoying inconvenience. The place for a lone hero/star is in Kamen Rider, not Sentai (and yes, it did annoy me when Dairanger did that, but at least Ryou had something genuinely worth showcasing i.e. Keiichi Wada's martial arts skills)

When it's just the leader (or one of the MOTWs), it's ganging up on a person, regardless of the altruism of the motives. Typically in the real world, when faced in that situation the enemy is forced to submit because of the numbers, but in Sentai ending the fight with "badass leader surrenders" doesn't work. So we get "badass leader gets murdered by a group of people" instead, which is basically summary execution.

Now, when we're given the martial artists in Gekiranger and Dekaranger, or the "Shijou Saikyou no Brave" in Kyoryuger, defeating the final enemy one-on-one flows more into the theme.
 

lazycoconut

I liked him when he wasn't a god
When it's just the leader (or one of the MOTWs), it's ganging up on a person, regardless of the altruism of the motives. Typically in the real world, when faced in that situation the enemy is forced to submit because of the numbers, but in Sentai ending the fight with "badass leader surrenders" doesn't work. So we get "badass leader gets murdered by a group of people" instead, which is basically summary execution.

Now, when we're given the martial artists in Gekiranger and Dekaranger, or the "Shijou Saikyou no Brave" in Kyoryuger, defeating the final enemy one-on-one flows more into the theme.

It's not "ganging up" on anyone, nor summary execution. In a well written Sentai, the team are equal in strength and power (i.e. NOT "Red is the strongest and bravest and the one chosen by destiny!!!"), so one on one wouldn't be a fair fight - no one would be strong enough to defeat the villain alone.

Although given Sanjo's recent comments about how Ohmori insisted Drive have only one main Rider and wanted "a hero who could stand up to anything on his own", I wonder how much of Kyoryu's focus on Daigo was Ohmori vs Sanjo. Ohmori seems like someone who wants to make shows where there's an obvious hero and superstar and everyone else is a sidekick, while Sanjo wrote W which showcased the teamwork between Shotaro and Philip (and to a lesser extent Akiko and Terui with them)
 

Jacky392000

Active Member
Frankly I think the all members fighting the final villain trope is stupid and sends a bad message. Have an annoying person doing things you don't like? Gang up on him and beat him up. I'm glad Kyoryuger didn't do that.

but what you did not realize that this has been happening in Sentai since the day it started. what you also DID NOT realize is that they purposely make the team weak even when they work together and the monster stronger because they DID NOT want the audience to think the heroes were ganging up on the monster and being bullies. by the way, this has been confirmed in an interview by the actors of Akaranger and Aoranger.

I don't mind if Red is still going to end up fighting the final villain alone, as long as his teammates were also there with him until the end and not elsewhere doing their own thing. and your comment of "wanting to see Sanjo writing another Sentai just to see how non-Japanese fans would go berserk" is just so, so dickish. really, it's uncalled for. but to avoid infraction, I'm just going to stop here.
 

kuroihikari

Member
It's not "ganging up" on anyone, nor summary execution. In a well written Sentai, the team are equal in strength and power (i.e. NOT "Red is the strongest and bravest and the one chosen by destiny!!!"), so one on one wouldn't be a fair fight - no one would be strong enough to defeat the villain alone.

From the Sentai I've seen there was not a single one where everyone was of equal strength.

Regardless, Kyoryu wasn't written with Daigo and Deboss being a fair fight. Fairness doesn't simply come with physical strength, but also with circumstance. They had to go through hell (for some of them, literally) to get there.

I think that sends a better message, because in real life, when there's a challenge that's seemingly insurmountable, sometimes combining your strengths to challenge it is not enough. The answer is finding and executing the proper plan that will give you the most chance of success. And yes, sometimes only one person gets the spotlight, but as long as you all acknowledged what you did as a team, then that's fine.

but what you did not realize that this has been happening in Sentai since the day it started. what you also DID NOT realize is that they purposely make the team weak even when they work together and the monster stronger because they DID NOT want the audience to think the heroes were ganging up on the monster and being bullies. by the way, this has been confirmed in an interview by the actors of Akaranger and Aoranger.

I know that happens that's why I call it a trope.

Regardless, Kyoryu is not alone in this, so clearly the idea is NOT the metaphor that five people beating on one person means teamwork, but the more general idea of teamwork itself. I think the former is falling back on the trope (i.e. it's lazy as hell) and is done to showcase action more than the lesson itself. And in terms of showcasing the lesson, I thought Kyoryu did just fine.

I don't mind if Red is still going to end up fighting the final villain alone, as long as his teammates were also there with him until the end and not elsewhere doing their own thing.

Whew, and here I thought you were talking about Kyoryuger, because that didn't happen there at all.

and your comment of "wanting to see Sanjo writing another Sentai just to see how non-Japanese fans would go berserk" is just so, so dickish. really, it's uncalled for. but to avoid infraction, I'm just going to stop here.

Seeing as neither of Sanjo writing nor fans going berserk is under my control, I don't see how that's my fault. Still, I'm sorry if it caused any offense.
 
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lazycoconut

I liked him when he wasn't a god
From the Sentai I've seen there was not a single one where everyone was of equal strength.

Regardless, Kyoryu wasn't written with Daigo and Deboss being a fair fight. Fairness doesn't simply come with physical strength, but also with circumstance. They had to go through hell (for some of them, literally) to get there.

I think that sends a better message, because in real life, when there's a challenge that's seemingly insurmountable, sometimes combining your strengths to challenge it is not enough. The answer is finding and executing the proper plan that will give you the most chance of success. And yes, sometimes only one person gets the spotlight, but as long as you all acknowledged what you did as a team, then that's fine. Michael Schumacher didn't win all those driver trophies by himself, and that we don't know anyone else on his team doesn't mean they're a crappy one. That's the type of teamwork that we'll see in real life.

Michael Schumacher is an individual sportsman with support staff (comparable to a Kamen Rider and his supporting cast, if we're using that analogy.) A Sentai team is more comparable to a sports team where there may be a captain/leader but they work together and perform as a collective unit. You can play to individual strengths at different times without giving one person the main spotlight and designating him as The Hero; that's why I liked ToQger's episode about the team acknowledging what each one is good at and each taking a different title of "leader"
 

kuroihikari

Member
You can play to individual strengths at different times without giving one person the main spotlight and designating him as The Hero;

More often than not, you can also forget glory altogether (doesn't matter who has it) for a better chance of success. It doesn't make it any worse.

So someone else in your team got the spotlight. Is it his fault? No. Is it anyone's fault? No. Was that person being an arrogant douche about it? Not really. Why should it matter, then? It really shouldn't. Is this a situation we'll have to face ourselves in real life? Hell yeah. That's how I look at it.
 

lazycoconut

I liked him when he wasn't a god
More often than not, you can also forget glory altogether (doesn't matter who has it) for a better chance of success. It doesn't make it any worse.

So someone else in your team got the spotlight. Is it his fault? No. Is it anyone's fault? No. Was that person being an arrogant douche about it? Not really. Why should it matter, then? It really shouldn't. Is this a situation we'll have to face ourselves in real life? Hell yeah. That's how I look at it.

So what you're suggesting is that a fight with any more than one against one is at best akin to school bullying ("ganging up"), at worst more like terrorism ("execution") and it is unrealistic to have 3-6 people working together with equal responsibility and roles; the only logical, reasonable, and responsible approach is one where there is a lone designated hero and everyone else just accepts their role as his sidekicks/support because at least they took part in the race even though he was the only possible winner.

Why do we need Sentai at all, then, when we already have Kamen Rider?
 

kuroihikari

Member
So what you're suggesting is that a fight with any more than one against one is at best akin to school bullying ("ganging up"), at worst more like terrorism ("execution") and it is unrealistic to have 3-6 people working together with equal responsibility and roles; the only logical, reasonable, and responsible approach is one where there is a lone designated hero and everyone else just accepts their role as his sidekicks/support because at least they took part in the race even though he was the only possible winner.

No, the only logical, reasonable, and responsible approach is thinking of a plan that has the best chance of working, executing it properly, and not really worrying about who gets the spotlight. But of course, this is Sentai, so not being logical is excusable.

And like I said, I know the metaphor of the all vs. 1 fight, but it still IS technically ganging up. The idea slightly disturbs me (even though I'm used to it) because there is a better way to show teamwork.

Why do we need Sentai at all, then, when we already have Kamen Rider?

Why do we need any TV show at all?
 
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Jacky392000

Active Member
that's why I liked ToQger's episode about the team acknowledging what each one is good at and each taking a different title of "leader"

I agree. there's hardly a moment where Right is doing all the work. even if he does want to shoulder it alone, his teammates will never say "yes" and they'll do it together.
 

lazycoconut

I liked him when he wasn't a god
And like I said, I know the metaphor of the all vs. 1 fight, but it still IS technically ganging up. The idea slightly disturbs me (even though I'm used to it) because there is a better way to show teamwork.

By that logic, kids shouldn't be exposed to (for instance) images of a whole bunch of police taking on a single armed criminal or something. They're just ganging up on the perpetrator!



Why do we need any TV show at all?

They're sister shows with a different focus (Sentai features a team of ostensibly equal heroes; Kamen Rider features a lone hero who is assisted by his supporting cast, but while their contribution is important, he will always save the day and be the star.) You seem to believe that the ideal Sentai series operates like a Kamen Rider show; so there's no reason to have both
 

kuroihikari

Member
By that logic, kids shouldn't be exposed to (for instance) images of a whole bunch of police taking on a single armed criminal or something. They're just ganging up on the perpetrator!

Actually, some people would call that use of excessive force and condemn it as police brutality. I don't. But I'd still rather kids see that there's a better way than physically overpowering someone with sheer numbers. Typically, that's the villain's MO.

They're sister shows with a different focus (Sentai features a team of ostensibly equal heroes; Kamen Rider features a lone hero who is assisted by his supporting cast, but while their contribution is important, he will always save the day and be the star.) You seem to believe that the ideal Sentai series operates like a Kamen Rider show; so there's no reason to have both

Kamen Rider is not really known for being assisted by a superpowered supporting cast with great teamwork (a lot of times, it's incredibly sloppy in fact). I mean, sure, it's part of the story most of the time, but that's not the first thing you think of when you think of Kamen Rider.

Regardless, you're building a strawman. I never implied anything about what an ideal Sentai or Rider show is. I think Sentai shows should showcase teamwork, and Kyoryu did that. Nothing else.
 

lazycoconut

I liked him when he wasn't a god
Actually, some people would call that use of excessive force and condemn it as police brutality. I don't. But I'd still rather kids see that there's a better way than physically overpowering someone with sheer numbers.

And I'd rather kids not be taught that a team is one where one person is just different and special and better, and the best the others can hope for is helping that person on their way to greatness.

Although I personally think Sentai should not be ashamed of portraying itself as a battle of good (heroes) vs evil (villains.) That's the principle of the show. It isn't a debate where both sides bring an equal amount to the table and the audience decides who's right ... which is why I have a major issue with the Gritta and Schwarz storyline in ToQger.


Kamen Rider is not really known for being assisted by a supporting cast with great teamwork (a lot of times, it's incredibly sloppy in fact). I mean, sure, it's part of the story most of the time, but that's not the first thing you think of when you think of Kamen Rider.

Regardless, you're building a strawman. I never implied anything about what an ideal Sentai or Rider show is. I think Sentai shows should showcase teamwork, and Kyoryu did that. Nothing else.

No, it's not known for that, which is what separates it from Sentai. That's why, in my opinion, Sentai teams should be equal (which includes everyone fighting together and sharing an equal role; not playing supporting cast to a main hero, as Kamen Rider does)
 

kuroihikari

Member
And I'd rather kids not be taught that a team is one where one person is just different and special and better, and the best the others can hope for is helping that person on their way to greatness.

Meh, the reality is though, it's really true. There'll always be outstanding people, and it's okay as long as he/she's not an arrogant jerk who thinks he/she's entitled to everything. And he/she can never do it alone. You can either strive to be him/her, but if you're just one of the rest, there's no reason to feel bad about it.

No, it's not known for that, which is what separates it from Sentai. That's why, in my opinion, Sentai teams should be equal (which includes everyone fighting together and sharing an equal role; not playing supporting cast to a main hero, as Kamen Rider does)

I just don't believe everyone fighting together is the best way to showcase teamwork. It would be nice that Sentai doesn't limit itself to that.
 

lazycoconut

I liked him when he wasn't a god
Meh, the reality is though, it's really true. There'll always be outstanding people, and it's okay as long as he/she's not an arrogant jerk who thinks he/she's entitled to everything. And he/she can never do it alone. You can either strive to be him/her, but if you're just one of the rest, there's no reason to feel bad about it.

I find that an incredibly defeatist attitude and I'd rather not teach children that some people are just special and naturally better than them and there's nothing more that child can achieve (nor that they owe anything to such a person; if someone's so outstanding, leave 'em on their own, imo) But that's just me


I just don't believe everyone fighting together is the best way to showcase teamwork. It would be nice that Sentai doesn't limit itself to that.

Fair enough
 

kuroihikari

Member
I find that an incredibly defeatist attitude and I'd rather not teach children that some people are just special and naturally better than them and there's nothing more that child can achieve (nor that they owe anything to such a person; if someone's so outstanding, leave 'em on their own, imo) But that's just me

Is it defeatist? It's a personal lesson I've learned through the years, so I don't really think it is.

Lemme just say that there are some people who will be really good at what they do, even though they don't try very hard at it or may not even want it at all. Not being that person is okay and he/she would be nothing alone. And his/her existence doesn't mean that you're not appreciated.
 

Painted_Outlaw

The new Tendou Souji
Now, when we're given the martial artists in Gekiranger [..] defeating the final enemy one-on-one flows more into the theme.

[hide]Long wasn't defeated one-on-one, though? Jan, Retsu and Ran worked together to seal him.[/hide]
 
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Goty

Member
And I'd rather kids not be taught that a team is one where one person is just different and special and better

But...that's how Sentai works. The Red is pretty much always shown to be better than the others. I can't think of a show where they're all treated as equals.
Even in series where the Red doesn't do a lot to justify his position - like Hiromu in Go-Busters - the other characters would often go out of their way to say he was a prodigy, a genius and all that.
 

lazycoconut

I liked him when he wasn't a god
But...that's how Sentai works. The Red is pretty much always shown to be better than the others. I can't think of a show where they're all treated as equals.
Even in series where the Red doesn't do a lot to justify his position - like Hiromu in Go-Busters - the other characters would often go out of their way to say he was a prodigy, a genius and all that.

Unfortunately yes but still, most teams do not take it as far as Kyoryuger did (or if we're looking for non-Kyoryu examples, the worst would probably be Power Rangers Mystic Force)

[hide]Long wasn't defeated one-on-one, though? Jan, Retsu and Ran worked together to seal him.[/hide]

But

[hide]Jan was the only one who could defeat Rio (excluding everyone else) and the "main" three were the only ones who could defeat Long (making GekiViolet/Chopper essentially redundant.) It's still suggesting to some extent that the whole team is not really important nor necessary.[/hide]
 

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