Is it too late for a new cyborg Rider?

[Toku Prime]

Another question: If The Next was even related to The First, then would that have helped to bring back cyborg Riders?

I doubt it. I don't know how they were marketed, but from watching them 'The First' and 'The Next' seem to be aimed at the teen/young-adult action movie market, with some added retro appeal. The show was still continuing as usual to keep the normal target audience entertained. Nowadays Toei don't seem so concerned with that teen/young-adult market, and now they include cameos from the classic Riders to piss on their legacies for retro appeal.

I think concepts for title Riders are quite dependant on them being able to prop up a toyetic gimmick. I think it would be quite difficult to come up with a gimmick that allows for various forms and other powers, and ties into the cyborg concept. So while I'd love to see one, I think cyborg riders will be confined to one-off roles at best for the forseeable future :disappoin

 

[Hell Kaiser Andy]

I think that they could have handled another Super-1 if they used outer space, but they went with Fourze, and not a cyborg main Rider.

I think that people like Birth because he is like a cross between G3 and a traditional Rider, but I would like to see a Rider whose actual body was changed prior to yelling "Henshin!"

Toei barely is touching that aspect of Kamen Rider which actually got the whole franchise started.

What I meant was simply in terms of design for toys.

 

[shingamyeonblack]

Ah, needs more information. I'll get back to you on that. I didn't sleep well and now I feel terrible.

 

[Glamador]

All this talk of "they wouldn't work well with toys" reeks of excuse making. All it takes a *little* bit of creativity. That's the writer's jobs after all.

Off the top of Glam's head, how about this: A cyborg rider which runs on energies absorbed from his enemies (think Rockman/Megaman) that allows him use of one of his enemies' abilities after he defeats them. There could be a neat graphic showing the inside of him with gears whirring and differently colored electricity flowing through different nodes to indicate which power is being used.

Some energy could "unlock" transformable limbs, or give him super hearing, or split his basic laser attack into a spread-shot, the possibilities are endless and it would TOTALLY work for toys. You could have see-through plastic with sparking innards and all sorts of interchangeable potentially marketable add-ons.

Could have the gimmick be different colored/shaped batteries that plug into the Henshin Driver. That's totally up KR's alley isn't it? They love that kind of campy "it's like an actual toy in how it functions! How droll!" mentality. Just look at KR Birth, he's totally tonge-in-cheek in how he activates his abilities.


Feel free to use that idea Toei. I lay no claim to it.

 

[shingamyeonblack]

That first idea is Rockman, so I doubt that Toei will go with it.

I don't know about energy giving him or her (first female cyborg Rider, do it, Toei!) powers, but increasing strength and speed after each energy absorption would work well.

A button to call the motorcycle on the belt would be nice. It's just that adding things to the belt is getting ridiculous now.

 

[Glamador]

That first idea is Rockman, so I doubt that Toei will go with it.

Bah, stealing one's enemies' abilities isn't trademark Capcom. Besides, the energy angle and interchangeable batteries is totally different. You could have multiple battery slots to activate powers in sequence and the more of the same type of battery used the stronger the related power gets.

There's plenty of ways to tweak it so it isn't a carbon-copy of Megaman.

But my random idea is something for another thread. I'm just saying there ARE ways to make a cyborg rider work in the current "Riderscape". Glam has, however, now trademarked that word. Anyone looking to use "Riderscape" has to pay Glamador royalties.

 

[Forte]

Like Glamador said a few posts back, all it takes is a little creativity. I think a cyborg Rider could work rather well in our day and age given the technological landscape our world has become, and it seems like a logical step they could take to re-introduce some of the older Rider concepts to a new generation. We just need a good team of writers that can take the concept and run with it.

If you look at the previous Heisei Riders we have, the cyborg concept isn't very far-fetched. Between Kiva, Faiz, Wizard, and even Agito, the idea of having Riders with these types of literal internal struggles seems to be relatively welcomed in this new era of Rider shows. A cyborg, in many ways, seems like a natural evolution of these previous ideas.

Think of it: this new Cyborg Rider could show up suddenly and mysteriously (like so many Riders before) and have the mystery of his transformation be revealed over time instead of right in the first episode. Perhaps he chose his cyborg life, or perhaps it was forced on him, or perhaps he had to in order to live. Struggling with his identity, he could explore our modern world and see how he fits into it.

I can picture a beautiful scene where he makes friends with someone similar to him that he feels empathy for only to have that person or creature be tragically killed or seriously injured ("Flowers for Algernon" comes to mind). I can picture him trying to see how different his emotions are as a cyborg, exploring different emotional experiences that normal humans go through every day (going to a theme park, taking leisurely walks, playing games, etc.). I think they could really explore what humanity actually means as an abstract concept; overall, it may be somewhat stereotypical and easy to guess by the end, but as mentioned before, a good team of writers can work with anything. Just because something has been done before doesn't mean it cannot be done well again.

As far as people with artificial limbs being offended, I'm not sure how realistic that is. Perhaps there might be a few people, but I don't know how widespread the use of cybernetics are today. I would think that seeing a hero on-screen who has a similar difficulty as you might create a sense of empathy, but having been blessed with a relatively healthy life, I cannot say how it might look to somebody with said difficulty.

 

[Glamador]

To the idea that artificial limb owners would be upset....I find that very far-fetched. If the rider had his artifice forced on him by an accident or somesuch then I would think that would make those who have lost limbs feel empowered. Technology is progressing that way anyway, so give them a glimpse into a future where they can be superheroes.

It could even start out as a sort of trick, like in the first episode of Agito. We see the rider henshin with a driver as per the usual KR formula...but then he gets his ass KICKED and his arm and leg lopped off. Then BOOM it's actually a show about a cyborg rider.

See? Another idea. Lack of ideas isn't the problem that's for sure. Glamador blames marketing. 'Tis a silly industry, thinking they know what people like. What they think people like doesn't matter in the slightest.


Did Glamador think he would want to watch a show about meth dealers, death, and cancer? He did not. But Breaking Bad is now one of his favorite shows ever and it's because of QUALITY. QUALITY is what draws people in. Make a fan of them first, and the merchandising sales will follow naturally.

 

[shingamyeonblack]

Like Glamador said a few posts back, all it takes is a little creativity. I think a cyborg Rider could work rather well in our day and age given the technological landscape our world has become, and it seems like a logical step they could take to re-introduce some of the older Rider concepts to a new generation. We just need a good team of writers that can take the concept and run with it.

If you look at the previous Heisei Riders we have, the cyborg concept isn't very far-fetched. Between Kiva, Faiz, Wizard, and even Agito, the idea of having Riders with these types of literal internal struggles seems to be relatively welcomed in this new era of Rider shows. A cyborg, in many ways, seems like a natural evolution of these previous ideas.

Think of it: this new Cyborg Rider could show up suddenly and mysteriously (like so many Riders before) and have the mystery of his transformation be revealed over time instead of right in the first episode. Perhaps he chose his cyborg life, or perhaps it was forced on him, or perhaps he had to in order to live. Struggling with his identity, he could explore our modern world and see how he fits into it.

I can picture a beautiful scene where he makes friends with someone similar to him that he feels empathy for only to have that person or creature be tragically killed or seriously injured ("Flowers for Algernon" comes to mind). I can picture him trying to see how different his emotions are as a cyborg, exploring different emotional experiences that normal humans go through every day (going to a theme park, taking leisurely walks, playing games, etc.). I think they could really explore what humanity actually means as an abstract concept; overall, it may be somewhat stereotypical and easy to guess by the end, but as mentioned before, a good team of writers can work with anything. Just because something has been done before doesn't mean it cannot be done well again.

Well, I see the struggles of not being human in those examples, and that's an idea that I would like to see expressed. It's just too mystic and whatnot. Faiz lives in a world in which there are others like him as a natural evolutionary process. Agito is similar with that except that he's not part of a natural process. Agito can live as Shoichi without any problem. Faiz can be accepted by regular human society without any worries that he will hurt his friends. This is because their powers are not manifested in their human forms. Riders like Hongo Takeshi and Jin Keisuke really had problems because they first felt that they were dangerous and Kamen Rider was the one good thing about their transformation.

The new Cyborg Rider idea looks like that idea for Kamen Rider Gaia that Ziginz posted.

I thought that most of the emotional impact from Flowers for Algernon came from the fact that Charlie was the one who related to Algernon. The audience would have a hard time with sympathy after connecting Charlie with Algernon because it takes an extra step. People would have more sympathy for a humanoid, like a cyborg who once was a regular person.

All the cyborg Kamen Riders had emotions. That is what led them to fight for justice and peace for others.

To the idea that artificial limb owners would be upset....I find that very far-fetched. If the rider had his artifice forced on him by an accident or somesuch then I would think that would make those who have lost limbs feel empowered. Technology is progressing that way anyway, so give them a glimpse into a future where they can be superheroes.

It could even start out as a sort of trick, like in the first episode of Agito. We see the rider henshin with a driver as per the usual KR formula...but then he gets his ass KICKED and his arm and leg lopped off. Then BOOM it's actually a show about a cyborg rider.

See? Another idea. Lack of ideas isn't the problem that's for sure. Glamador blames marketing. 'Tis a silly industry, thinking they know what people like. What they think people like doesn't matter in the slightest.


Did Glamador think he would want to watch a show about meth dealers, death, and cancer? He did not. But Breaking Bad is now one of his favorite shows ever and it's because of QUALITY. QUALITY is what draws people in. Make a fan of them first, and the merchandising sales will follow naturally.

I like the idea as black humor, but I don't know about actually doing it.

I'm not sure about quality of the one show being the one thing that matters. Decade piggybacked off Double after its run and OOO piggybacked off Double as well, and that actually decreased the quality of the movies that were intended to be Double's movies. Begin's Night is another Decade movie and Double Forever got super awkward when OOO appeared. It was done to increase the sales for other series, but it did not do something good for Double.


Thanks again for your inputs. I feel like we're getting somewhere.

 

[Forte]

Well, I see the struggles of not being human in those examples, and that's an idea that I would like to see expressed. It's just too mystic and whatnot. Faiz lives in a world in which there are others like him as a natural evolutionary process. Agito is similar with that except that he's not part of a natural process. Agito can live as Shoichi without any problem. Faiz can be accepted by regular human society without any worries that he will hurt his friends. This is because their powers are not manifested in their human forms. Riders like Hongo Takeshi and Jin Keisuke really had problems because they first felt that they were dangerous and Kamen Rider was the one good thing about their transformation.

The new Cyborg Rider idea looks like that idea for Kamen Rider Gaia that Ziginz posted.

I thought that most of the emotional impact from Flowers for Algernon came from the fact that Charlie was the one who related to Algernon. The audience would have a hard time with sympathy after connecting Charlie with Algernon because it takes an extra step. People would have more sympathy for a humanoid, like a cyborg who once was a regular person.

All the cyborg Kamen Riders had emotions. That is what led them to fight for justice and peace for others.

Points well taken, thanks for addressing those issues with Faiz and Agito. I do think that having that dangerous aspect in "civilian form" (so to speak) would be nice to see and could create serious dramatic moments as well as light, humorous moments. It just depends on writers who will see the opportunities and take advantage of the fact that the Rider is powerful even when not transformed.

That issue of sympathy would be important, I think. On the one hand, children would look at this character and want to be like him. After all, he's a superhero fighting bad guys. On the other hand, people will feel sympathetic once they learn how his transformation into a cyborg came about. And I think dealing with emotional issues like that can be helpful.

As far as emotions go, it could be good to explore how a cyborg would view the world and how introspective they are about their own emotions and motivations. Since morals and ethics have become such an ambiguously gray area in our day and age, it may be interesting to see how a cyborg might try to understand what kind of moral code they would develop. With all this power, things can become easier, right? What is the role of responsibility when it comes to my powers? What standard for my behavior do I adhere to? Maybe they would develop a black-and-white view of justice by the end, but exploring their emotional shift would be intriguing.

Granted, these are heavy topics coming from a children's show, but Japanese culture can be quite subtle in that way.

Thanks for continuing the conversation, I like discussing things like this.