I'm Really sick of Tendou and Tsukasa Hate

LaZerwolfX

Henshin a Go-Go!!
The title pretty much explains it but I'm genuinely sick of people hating on Tendou and Tsukasa who always get pegged with a bad rap. I've never felt these two ever deserved the hate they get from the fans. It seems pretty common for people to just sum these characters up as douchebags and then piss and moan about what terrible characters they are without attempting to acknowledge that there are reasons why these characters are the way they are.

WARNING: SPOILERS AHEAD!

Tendou/Kabuto:
Tendou is alot of peoples least liked main rider, and I never really got this. They make statements like; Tendou doesnt care about anyone, and Tendous' an asshole. But I never once felt that way. I think the reason for this is because I never took Tendou seriously. (Also these responses always gave me the impression that Tendou might actually have a minor social disorder of some kind.) Despite the shows "serious atmosphere" I've always seen Tendou as being easily the funniest rider in the Heisei era simply because I found him too over the top to take seriously.

I dont see how a character that at least to me seems so obviously meant to be comedic generates such rage from people. I guess its possible that I never really viewed Tendou as the main character to begin with; I instead always felt that Kagami was truly the main character of the series. And Tendou served a purpose similar to Zero in Megaman X. Hes not there to be friendly or be a compassionate hero. Hes there to kick ass and get the job done, and symbolically Tendou (Zero) serves as an example of just how strong Kagami (X) could become.

They're truly 2 sides of the same coin. Tendou is the more precise and technical fighter and because he isnt as controlled by his emotions, will appear to be the stronger of the 2. But once Gatack shows up he shows that what really makes someone strong are the bonds they have with the people around them. And while he might not be as strong or skilled as Tendou his desire to protect people gives him the drive and the edge to match Tendou.

Kagami is the character who unlike almost every rider in that series, actually has to earn his powers. Hes the most compassionate, he fights for what he believes in and refuses to give up despite other riders being more skilled than he is. He does this so that he can become stronger and protect more people.

Sure this might make Tendou a little hollow as a character considering hes basically just there for fights and to indirectly assist Kagamis character development, but even so I feel this makes him a valid character.

Tsukasa/Decade:

Unlike with Tendou, I don't have any defense for Tsukasas personality; he is a douchebag. But the thing that so many people seem to miss (probably due to the vast majority of the fandoms tendency to generalize everything to do with Decade as being utter ****.) is that the series gives us 2 totally valid reasons why he is this way.

1) He has the power of 10 goddamn Kamen Riders!

I know most of us would like to assume that if we got Kamen Rider powers, we'd use it to save people and whatnot. But one thing I always appreciated about Tsukasa is that he provides the argument against that mindset. Maybe we wouldn't save people, maybe the power would cause us to become arrogant and possibly even cruel or neglectful to weaker individuals around us. Its easy to always assume you'd do "the right thing" but this has 10 sets of essentially super powers to deal with, I for one know I'd be hard pressed to not do selfish acts with that kinda power.

2) Hes the Emperor of Shocker!

Now while I acknowledge Tsukasas amnesia, I still think its not entirely impossible to imagine that even with amnesia, a person that is used to doing things a certain way might still retain some of their mind/personality within their subconscious. I realize this ones kind of a push but I don't think its too farfetched to assume that. Plus looking at it this way would actually add quite a bit of complexity to the character and would explain a number of his actions throughout the series. It wont necessarily go too far cuz the writing in Decade still isn't all that great but it can at least make him a more enjoyable character.

And I for one would rather put a little bit of thought into liking these characters then just dismissing them. We only have so much Kamen Rider available to us in the west, why not try and enjoy as much of it as you can.
 
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KingRanger

Banned
The title pretty much explains it but I'm genuinely sick of people hating on Tendou and Tsukasa who always get pegged with a bad rap. I've never felt these two ever deserved the hate they get from the fans. It seems pretty common for people to just sum these characters up as douchebags and then piss and moan about what terrible characters they are without attempting to acknowledge that there are reasons why these characters are the way they are

All I can say is suck it up. No one really ever likes when people don't like things they are passionate about.

why not try and enjoy as much of it as you can.

Because opinions.
 

KingRanger

Banned
Really? Thats a pretty brilliant deduction, you come up with that on your own?

You went off on a long rant about something you don't understand. I gave you the most direct reason. People will not always agree because they have differing feelings. That is not all that hard to understand.:sweat:
 

LaZerwolfX

Henshin a Go-Go!!
You went off on a long rant about something you don't understand. I gave you the most direct reason. People will not always agree because they have differing feelings. That is not all that hard to understand.:sweat:

No ****. I'm just saying that people maybe judged a little too quickly, and I would like to get the well articulated opinion of someone who feels differently. I'm trying to provoke a legitimate discussion. But thanks for being unconstructive.
 
I haven't watched Kabuto yet, so I can't really offer much opinion aside from what I've read, where I sort of get the impression he's a bit of an arrogant guy.

Tsukasa might not be my favourite rider, but I certainly don't hate the guy (being my first rider probably helps). I kind of agree with what you say about why he's like he is actually. The Great Leader stuff had crossed my mind but the power stuff was a new thought, thanks for that.
 

KingRanger

Banned
No ****. I'm just saying that people maybe judged a little too quickly, and I would like to get the well articulated opinion of someone who feels differently. I'm trying to provoke a legitimate discussion. But thanks for being unconstructive.

What it sounds like is that you want some one to agree with you. I have not gone after you on a personal level. I am stating what I think. If you wanted only replies that are "well articulated", then you should have put that in your thread topic.

My problem with Tendou is that he is full of himself. He cares for no one except the girl. He is also way to over powered. The fact he can take away other riders zectors to power himself up is such nonsense.

DCD was just badly written. He was pretty cool at times, and then all of the sudden in the same episodes BAM he was a complete douche bag. The KR Blade episodes were prime examples of this.

I know I am not "well articulated", but those are my feelings.
 

lazycoconut

I liked him when he wasn't a god
I always thought Tsukasa was a total douche, but that's the way I approach things. I expect heroes to be "nice", and if they're not I will dislike them, even if the story gives them a good reason to be the way they are.

I do like Tendou, he's so over the top I found him funny. However, he was still a dick a lot of the time, and I can understand why others don't like him.

I also think a lot of the reason they get hate is because they're seen as "too powerful" and people consider it bad writing/they don't want to watch a hero who can easily win any conflict. Takumi's a jerk yet he doesn't get the kind of hate they do.
 

Toku Prime

Well-Known Member
Personally I never minded either of those two Riders. But then again, there are lots of well-loved Riders that I don't see the appeal of *cough*Gills*cough* so it's just a matter of taste.

With regards to Tendou, there were four reasons why I could accept his arrogance:
1. The guy IS completely right 95% of the time. He says how it's going to go, and he's bang on the money. Within the Kabuto universe, he's totally justified for thinking highly of himself.
2. The guy clearly loved his grandmother, and she in turn clearly spent every day of his childhood drilling it into him how special he was. If the person you love the most raises you to believe in something, you tend to believe it (especially if it strokes your ego).
3. It's a reference to Stronger. They're the same kind of insect. They're the same kind of douchebag. 'Cause, honestly, Stronger's a dick. I had no problem with Tendou but by the end of the first episode of Stronger I was desperately hoping Tackle was going to turn around and give him a swift kick in the nuts for being such an ass.
4. Yeah, it's often somewhat amusing.

As for Decade, well my lasting memories of the first time I ran through it were just of him being quite bland. I did re-watch the first dozen episodes over the Christmas break, and actually there's proper character evolution with every story. In Kuuga's world he starts out not thinking much of Yuusuke and freely admits he has no sense of morality (and so could well be the destroyer of worlds). In Kiva's world he learns that Yuusuke has a keen sense of what's right and wrong, who's good and who's bad. In Ryuki's world he decides that he should act upon Yuusuke's advice from now on (only the time vent card alters things so Yuusuke doesn't know that Tsukasa has started doing this). In Blade's world, he's still being a dick by default ('cause he still has no idea of right and wrong) but as Yuusuke starts spinning theories as to what he's doing he automatically starts to do exactly as Yuusuke suggests and therefore is able to help Blade. In Faiz's world he makes his own choice to side with Takumi, but it's more because the Orphanochs pissed him off than because he really wants to help anyone. By the time he reaches Agito's world he's starting to act as a protector of his own volition (suggesting that he's starting to gain his own conscience and therefore taken a big step away from being the destroyer of worlds). At least in this first third of the show, he's not a static character. He's changing and evolving with each world he visits. The way I see it, that's a good thing.
 

bleachjoj

Member
I always thought Tsukasa was a total douche, but that's the way I approach things. I expect heroes to be "nice", and if they're not I will dislike them, even if the story gives them a good reason to be the way they are.

I do like Tendou, he's so over the top I found him funny. However, he was still a dick a lot of the time, and I can understand why others don't like him.

I also think a lot of the reason they get hate is because they're seen as "too powerful" and people consider it bad writing/they don't want to watch a hero who can easily win any conflict. Takumi's a jerk yet he doesn't get the kind of hate they do.

I accept Tsukasa being a jerk because you can tell he was widely insecure. And like Tendou it wasn't taken too seriously. Tendou got on my nerves sometimes but none of the characters took his God complex seriously.

And I don't like Takumi not because he was a jerk but because he was a sullen emo jerk.
 

ChiPsiUp

Member
I don't know how many people are in my boat, but I like Tsukasa, but really dislike Tendou. That being said, I can understand why people hate on Tsukasa so much.


THE PROBLEM WITH TSUKASA/DECADE

It's quite simple, really. Decade as a show made the terrible decision to visit other rider worlds, but they did NOT get the original rider actors back. And further more, they made a habit of constantly having Decade one-up the previous riders. People did NOT like seeing Decade going around making fun of, beating up, or otherwise just showing up their favorite riders of years past. Even "AR" versions of them with slightly different names and completely different actors.

The worst victim of this was Kuuga, who was demoted from bad-ass rider who revived the whole KR franchise in the Heisei era, to Tsukasa's goofy and often ineffective sidekick.

Speaking for myself personally, I didn't watch Decade until recently, and I've watched very few of the early Heisei Rider series, so I was able to enjoy the show without feeling too much rage.


THE PROBLEM WITH TENDOU/KABUTO

This is going to need a bit more explaining. My problem with Tendou is that he feels like a Mary Sue. The writers of Kabuto seem to be in love with him, they write him as some kind of perfect superman and everything always works out for him because he's Tendou Souji. Maybe the audience wasn't supposed to take him seriously, but the writers seem to take him seriously. The plot virtually NEVER lets him lose at ANYTHING.

Take for example, when he first meets Drake. They get into a competition to see who can pick up the most girls. Drake is a womanizer and a flirt, and he manages to get a lot of girls. Tendou doesn't do anything, and shows up empty handed. However, when the girls Drake brought see Tendou, they immediately flock over to him, and he wins the contest. Why? Because he's Tendou Fuckin' Souji.

Yes, if we take a step back and look at it, we can think of it as silly and comedic. Why did Tendou manage to walk into a hospital and become a doctor instantly? Cause he's Tendou Souji. Why did Tendou become a high ranking police officer in a few days? Cause he's Tendou Souji. Why is he now a high ranking member of ZECT, a SECRET organization? Cause he's Tendou Souji.

But here's the problem. We can't take it all as a joke. The plot takes Tendou too seriously, because Tendou is the main rider. He gets all the power ups, he wins all the fights, he's the invincible superstar. The writers don't even explain half the power ups that show up, they just "appear" because he's Tendou Souji.

"The hyper zector has been destroyed."
"No, I have it right here."
"That's impossible, we all saw it blown up!"
"No, I am Tendou Souji. I was always meant to have this, so time travel/fate/destiny etc. It is now mine."
"That makes no sense!"

"You think you're so tough now cause you have that Hyper Zector, why don't you try fighting us without it."
"I have no reason to agree, but I will do so anyhow."
"Ha ha, we got you now!"
"No, you see, I also have this super powerful sword that just came out of the sky."
"Where the hell did that come from?"
"I'm Tendou Souji. I'm constantly evolving."

We are given a contrast with Kagami. Kagami, who is the everyman. The hard working guy who trys hard, wants to protect people. The guy who fails over and over but gets back up to try again. And this contrast of the two would be great if Kagami was the main rider and Tendou was the secondary rider. Having a jerk/too cool for school secondary rider is pretty standard for KR. But Tendou is the MAIN rider!

What does this mean for Kabuto as a whole? It means that Kagami NEVER gets to beat Tendou. We never get to see the triumph of hard work over the super boy who gets everything because he was born awesome. It means that Tendou gets all the new toys. The hyper zector, the big sword thingy. Kagami never got any power ups after he finally got to be Gattack. We should count ourselves lucky that Kagami didn't get killed, or written out of the plot, or ignored by the time the finale rolled around, like EVERY OTHER RIDER ON THE SHOW.

We even had a story arc with Tendou going around beating up all the other riders and taking away their devices, because he was that badass and no one else deserves to be a rider. And were we supposed to cheer for this guy? Is this really our main hero, the guy we want to save the day?
 

Sentaifan'07 Xman

"Let's DRIVING!!!!!"
My problem with Tendou is that he is full of himself. He cares for no one except the girl. He is also way to over powered. The fact he can take away other riders zectors to power himself up is such nonsense.
Yeah, I guess that was probably the main reason why there was a lot of negative comments about Tendou's character. But for me, it was somewhat average.

DCD was just badly written. He was pretty cool at times, and then all of the sudden in the same episodes BAM he was a complete douche bag. The KR Blade episodes were prime examples of this.
Yeah, but that was probably why he was somewhat cooler for everyone to like and dislike. But, that's just me taking. Me?! I guess I'll let him slide. Bu still at least he was a better douche bag unlike a certain treasure-hungry Rider thief, whose name that I can't say out loud.
 
You can justify it all you want, but that won't change an unlikable character. I need to root for the hero, I need to want him to succeed. By making them inconsiderate, arrogant, and rude individuals with virtually no redeeming qualities beyond "Oh yeah, I need to save people because... I dunno," I just cannot care. Vegeta worked because he was secondary. I HATED him in the Cell Saga, but I had Goku, Gohan, and Trunks to take the majority of the story, therefore balancing out Vegeta being a creep. You don't get that with Tendou and Tsukasa. The writers WANTED Gattack and Kuuga to be a balance for them, but it doesn't work when they're everything but story fodder. In the two episodes in which Gattack got any recognition, all I thought was "...Wait, why isn't he the focus, exactly?" I shouldn't have to think that.
It's storytelling 101. You never make your characters powerful enough to have no threat, and you never alienate your characters entirely from the audience.
 
No ****. I'm just saying that people maybe judged a little too quickly, and I would like to get the well articulated opinion of someone who feels differently. I'm trying to provoke a legitimate discussion. But thanks for being unconstructive.

Well, I just did, so you can stop snapping at people now.
 

FreedomR8G6B1

New Member
There's nothing wrong with either of them, they're pretty good characters...however...I still have to proclaim that...

"Tsukasa is the Heavens itself...Tendou just walks it."
 

MattComix

Super Moderator
Okay, I'll throw in.

I would have to say that even if there is a solid rationale for their behavior in the story that doesn't necessarily make them actually anymore entertaining to watch nor anymore worthy of being considered a good Kamen Rider protagonist. Or even a good anti-hero version of one. Besides a superhero story is ideally not the place you got to if you just want to see assholes punching other assholes.

Maybe for some they work if that viewer just really wants live vicariously through the idea of being the "badass" with Rider powers with zero obligation to being a nice guy. But that's kind of point missing for a super or henshinhero story and there are other places to go for that kind of fantasy.

Also to be perfectly blunt, this whole "if I had super powers I'd just **** up everybody and do what I wanted because that's what'd happen in real life!" thing is such cynical cliche crap. If no human being in real life were capable of thinking beyond themselves in the capacity of saving others then there would be no firemen, there would be no rescue workers, etc. Heroism is not just some lazy genre conceit that writers came up with. It is something that happens in real life just like all the dark awful stuff in real life. We do of course surely wish it happened more often. Yeah we want our heroes to relateable but they also need to be aspirational.

But in all fairness both Kabuto and Decade have a ton of other problems besides their not so likable protags. At least Tendou was consistent. Tsukasa is kind of all over the place and his transitions from one side to the other and back again make about as much sense as anything else in Decade. All that said though while I have been blunt in my opinion I'm not trying to say that anyone is bad for enjoying those characters so I hope that's not how it's coming off.
 

cypsiman2

MagiFanboy
I've not seen Decade so I can't comment on Tsukasa.

I have seen Kabuto though, and my journey on what I thought of Tendou was an interesting; at first I thought he was ridiculously hilarious, then for a time I found him insufferably annoying as the show went way too far on the Tendou worship, but in the end I actually rather liked him; the main things I liked about him was how proactive he was as a Kamen Rider, actively searching for and dealing with the Worm threat, and whenever he encountered someone who was a better cook than him, he had nothing but the utmost respect for them. The things that annoyed me were when Tendou displayed super competence in areas that he had no interest in, that were superfluous to his character; stuff like being able to infiltrate any organization and outdo anyone at their chosen specialty no matter how obscure or microscopic they may have been. It comes off as incredibly insecure, like the writers aren't confident that Tendou will be able to stand on his own merits and so they go to excess on trying to push just how amazing Tendou is. By contrast, the Hyper and Perfect Zecters, while still bull, were more issues with the surrounding writing than a failing in the writing of Tendou's character.
 

LaZerwolfX

Henshin a Go-Go!!
I would have to say that even if there is a solid rationale for their behavior in the story that doesn't necessarily make them actually anymore entertaining to watch nor anymore worthy of being considered a good Kamen Rider protagonist. Or even a good anti-hero version of one. Besides a superhero story is ideally not the place you got to if you just want to see assholes punching other assholes.

Him being a Kamen Rider has nothing to do with what kind of protagonist he can or cannot be, I am just pointing out some observations I made that I feel make the character more complex and while that might not "justify" the character or whatever, I feel like one could at least appreciate the writers attempting something different for the franchise, even if it didn't entirely work out. I feel the effort should still be respected.

Maybe for some they work if that viewer just really wants live vicariously through the idea of being the "badass" with Rider powers with zero obligation to being a nice guy. But that's kind of point missing for a super or henshinhero story and there are other places to go for that kind of fantasy.

http://www.popcrunch.com/asshole-comics-superheroes/

Also to be perfectly blunt, this whole "if I had super powers I'd just **** up everybody and do what I wanted because that's what'd happen in real life!" thing is such cynical cliche crap. If no human being in real life were capable of thinking beyond themselves in the capacity of saving others then there would be no firemen, there would be no rescue workers, etc. Heroism is not just some lazy genre conceit that writers came up with. It is something that happens in real life just like all the dark awful stuff in real life. We do of course surely wish it happened more often. Yeah we want our heroes to relateable but they also need to be aspirational.

Thats not what I'm getting at, its not about him being a "badass", I'm saying that Tsukasa at least deviates from the typical "do-gooder" type, he wasn't really an anti hero but is easily the most "chaotic-neutral" Rider. I just feel it was a nice change of pace for a Rider. And as far as his douchebaggery goes, he doesnt just have 1 set of rider powers, hes got the power of 10. Hes literally the strongest Kamen Rider ever, bar none and throughout the series he only gets stronger.

how could you not at the bare minimum be at least a little full of yourself if you could honestly own up to that kind of title. Im not saying that every hero should be like this, but I never minded Tsukasa being the way he is because he honestly has every right to be.

The way I see it, if you talk big and cant back it up; you're a douchebag. But, if you talk big and can live up to your own hype, thats just impressive.
 

Japaneseseriesfan

A simple passerby...
Personally, I think Tendou's just been traumatised to the point that even he himself feels as isolated from society as Hiyori did, which is why I thought their relationship was interesting. She's the only person he could relate to, even if it's not really his sister, but its close enough. Honestly, I don't get why people complain about him being good at things even professionals have trouble with. I actually know people like that. They do exist, people with multiple talents, but its for the sake of the show that they show it to you at an exaggerated level, because hey, kid's show, he's gotta be cool.

On Tsukasa's case, I completely understand. At this point, to date, Decade's probably the strongest Kamen Rider to exist. Plus, the guy's not even a good guy to begin with. His portrayal often swayed a bit, like Natsumi's laughing pressure point and him goofing off sometimes, I mean a guy with such a smile, sometimes you wonder if they can really do bad. Which is a nice touch to be honest. You only see his moment of doing good the entire series, all the way until he actually decides to do bad. He's a what if Inui Takumi just decided to screw everyone else and actually pick a fight.

Riders aren't meant to be heroes that everyone can like, as I understand. I don't think every Rider can be that guy that fakes a smile for others sake. It may have been that case in the Showa era, but realise that reality is pretty much key here. No one goes through those things and come out the same. Tsukasa might not be a Kaizo Ningen, but he might as hell want to shoot himself sometimes with all the troubles in his life and so much power can't fix it.
 

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