Do you believe Decade can beat ALL the other Riders? And SHOULD he be able to?

[musashi03]

real men wear pink/magenta... just look at Himura Kenshin or Bret Hart.:thumbs:

But Kenshin is voiced by a girl, and if you noticed when he turns into Battousai, they artists make sure that the tone of the scene is dark, making his kimono dark-purple instead of his usual pink... :sweat:

And I'm an HBK fan. :laugh:

We will miss you Shawn...

 

[kyoot]

But Kenshin is voiced by a girl, and if you noticed when he turns into Battousai, they artists make sure that the tone of the scene is dark, making his kimono dark-purple instead of his usual pink... :sweat:

And I'm an HBK fan. :laugh:

We will miss you Shawn...

well Masahiro Inoue/Tsukasa is in the borderline of being a girly-man in terms of looks.

 

[Reito-sama]

The is no for me. Decade not that all-powerful type of Rider bishing-bashing through all Riders at once, only he defeat those Heisei Riders. But to Showa cannot be certain the fact. Tsukasa had the Decadriver to access change into Rider Forms though not perfect. His Rider Kick is equal to someone as X Kamen Rider's level. But he had the possibility using cards as weapons similar to Blade's Rouzer and Ryuki's Drag Visor to access abilities per 0.8 seconds activate. Unlike Kuuga or Double's weapon adaption.

All he should be together with Natsumi than being an destroyer of all worlds and he will survive. Who knows. He's the Rider in Magenta and weird bar code motif much better than cowardly and useless Diend. He needs some vacation! xD

 

[Sage Shinigami]

I may or may not annoy some fans of the older era stuff with this, but Igadevil hit on something that's been bugging me for some time.

Part of my big problem with Decade, or at least with the last movie, is how they can't seem to settle on just what Decade is.

Now I love the idea of him being the ultimate weapon, created by every Rider villain teaming up to destroy the Riders, and he's forgotten. Perhaps the big battle in episode 1 wasn't a dream, but could have been the moment when Decade (and the universe) was shattered- leaving him stuck on a backwater world with no memory of who he's meant to be until the chance arises for him to atone. It's simple and to the point. It makes sense with the original idea- Decade travels the worlds, makes friends, acquires more power, but when he reaches the end and the chance to reclaim the life he lost, he has changed along the way going from a villain to a hero. It's like an unintentional redemption.

Unfortunately there's everything else. The whole self-fulfilling prophecy/Decade must destroy to save/worlds colliding/stories and memories things really doesn't jive with the other explanation. It might have come first, but I think it's the less-cool one.

I can buy that Daishocker could create the ultimate Rider who, despite a moment of weakness in trying to re-assume his old life, realizes what his journey was really about and accepts his place in the Rider family. I have a harder time buying that Tsukasa's response to being attacked by the 9 Heisei Riders is to go apeshit, turn everyone into cards, get a new mask for some reason, then let Natsumi kill him so he can save reality and come back with some CGI assistance to go help Double fight the all-new, all-annoying Neo Organism.

As I said the first time, I think Movie War was trying to go for a metafictional angle, but it really doesn't work. It's got some good ideas, but the whole thing really doesn't hold together with what's gone on before. It'd have been more satisfying if the final revelation was that Decade is a TV series. Narutaki is just an angry internet fanboy, complaining about Decade ruining his favorite shows and injecting cameo appearances wherever possible. The show ends with Tsukasa walking off set as the lights turn off and Yusuke raiding the commissary. That would have been total bullshit, but it'd be bold. What we have feels kind of limp, as if they had planned a more spectacular ending and then did something completely different. Oh wait...

So I suppose you can say that if you go with the idea of Decade as Daishocker's trump card, I think he could theoretically be able to beat all the Riders... though in practice, he shouldn't be able to. If Decade should have swiped anything from Spirits, it's the idea that ultimately, the STRONGEST RIDER EVER!!1!â„¢ still sucks as long as he's evil. I think especially to that part where ZX and Rider 1 kick each other... and it's ZX's leg that shatters. He's the Perfect Cyborg, but he's playing on the wrong team. Evil simply can not ultimately triumph over Good in the Riderverse. He might be newer and shinier than Rider 1, stronger and faster even. But at that point he lacks the human spirit that is Kamen Rider's real greatest strength.

My biggest problem with Decade is this right here. The Heisei-era Riders are quite simply...too powerful. Its not about special effects or whatever BS some old-school fan will try hide behind...its about concepts.

Kuuga, by the end of his series, appears nigh-omnipotent. The random-ness of him setting his enemy on fire in the finale kinda signified to me that the Ultimate Form came with all kinds of new powers that we just never saw because the final fight scene wasn't about him being horrendously strong so much, they just wanted to show you how powerful he had become.

The whole point of Agito is to show the near-infinite ability of the humans to grow and adapt, and Agito is the embodiment OF that, AND his powers come from the creator of humanity himself.

Blade's powers allow him to tap directly into the proto/archetypical animals of the planet. Not only that, his Ultimate Form allows him to tap 13 of those powers simultaneously, when its already been shown that most people have trouble using the powers of 1, much less 3 or 4, and its shaky at best.

Den-O...the fact that Den-O has ANY powers and can become a Rider at all is based on the fact that he's a singularity point. That means no matter how you alter, change, or rewrite time, Ryoutarou will ALWAYS exist.

(I have no idea what Faiz or Hibiki's powers are, and Ryuki's powers aren't nearly as impressive as those four, and Kabuto's were tech-based to begin with, while Kiva's powers don't even NEED to be emulated to be defeated in the first place.)

My point is, apparently Dai-Shocker is able to not only emulate ALL of these powers, but put them all into ONE single device, and I just don't feel like evil should ever have that level of power--particularly an evil which, up to this point, specialized in making really powerful cyborgs who they repeatedly would forget to brainwash when they made particularly powerful ones. Its...an insult, really, to the Heisei Riders. Like saying, "Hey....these are the Showa villains. They're IMPORTANT. Who cares what you can do?"

And you know...it might have been okay if Tsukasa had been a Yuusuke/Shouichi/Kenzaki-type of guy. Heisei Rider has a habit of giving the really ridiculous levels of power to the super-nice, heroic-type guys. (With the exception of Tendou, which is probably why so many fans reject him being so strong.)

It would have been perfectly FINE if the Decadriver had been made by Sumiko Ozawa, who created the G3-X armor (which could keep up with Agito, who smacked around Agents of Creation), with the help of all the other Riders/smart people in the Rider-verses. That would have signified a level of respect, and acceptance from the other Riders that Decade HAD powers that surpassed theirs and could destroy everything.

But they didn't do any of that. Instead, Dai-Shocker just collects all these powers like they're Pokemon, and shoves them into the Decadriver because, well, they're Dai-Shocker and they get to do that. Regardless of how much sense it makes, plotwise.

Around this time, someone's going to tell me Dai-Shocker's made up of former HEISEI villains. Which is true, but...ugh. That was a mistake too. The Grongi would just see a group of Dai-Shocker's level and enjoy playing a "game" with a group more interesting than humans. The Unknown, and their boss, would notice Dai-Shocker has the power to traverse universes, declare it frighteningly close to the ability to evolve, and attack. The Mirror Monsters would not team up anyway, as they're not very intelligent. The Undead don't care about any game except the Battle Fight, with the exception of a few Royals. And the villains from Den-O exist to destroy timelines anyway; why would they team-up to fix them so they can rule?

The purpose of any group is that they have, to some extent, similar motivations and goals. Most Rider villains, honestly, simply do not. And YES, you could create reasons why they would. ...But Decade didn't, and left that to fans because kids don't care, housewives don't care, and the fans should just suck it up even though this series is supposed to be for them. If this were Decade's only flaw, I'd excuse it, but its just one flaw among dozens in this series. (Like how Clock Up is MUCH faster than the speed of sound, what with how easy it dodges bullets, but somehow Faiz's Accel Form cold keep up anyway...)

And THAT'S why I asked this question. Because in my eyes, while Decade COULD defeat all ten Riders, as he exists, I don't think he deserves to.

 

[musashi03]

^ Loved your point about how the heck did all the villains manage to unite even with differing principles... It's like they just happened to hate the Riders more, so they went "the enemy of my enemy is my friend" bit, which really shouldn't be the case since they are all so egotistical that pursuing something which can undermine their main goal really contradicts things.

I appreciate the fact that they tried to unite all the Riders in one single universe through Decade, but they forget that each Rider world had its own rules and logic, had it's own version of how the world was created, had it's own version of what their point of existence were, and had their own set of unique conflicts of ideals which led to whatever fight the Riders have against that world's villains. Uniting the worlds had the consequence of trimming a lot of details to have all the worlds equally share the same pie, which I think is the biggest flaw of Decade.

Sentai easily takes care of their team-up differences by having the members fight for their own ideals until they realize that they had the same goals, so they team-up in the end, but in Decade, they made it seem like Decade was able to answer all of the problems in each world, making him too omnipotent to even exist. I mean, I wish they just made a godlike character instead of a godlike Rider, pretty much like how the Overlord of Darkness from Agito is, and to top it all of, this godlike Rider is a product of a villain organization, which happen to have the resources to have that kind of power and which also happen to have the charisma to attract other organziations to team-up with them.

Sigh~ That's the problem with Decade for me, as much as I appreciated it, it forgot so many details with each world just to link their common denominators.

 

[Igadevil]

Well on the other side, I actually not only like that Decade was made by Daishocker, but I prefer that explanation. Here's the thing:

To a degree, it kind of is about the effects too. Consider what people do with the Showa Riders when they're given total free reign- Spirits has them doing ridiculous cool-looking stuff that they couldn't do in the 70's and 80's, let alone now. It's visualizing ideas that were always there, even if the technology wasn't. I was surprised they didn't go for something more outrageous in the Decade movies, though at least they finally had Skyrider flying the way I'd always wanted to see him. Point is, if we ever see the Showa Riders onscreen again, they aren't going to use the old crayon energy lines or super-imposed Battle Hopper jumping scene anymore (even if I love 'em.)

That ties into the concepts, where you have to take into account what they were capable of doing in the old shows and what they can do now. I know Sage hates Stronger beating up Blade in All Riders, but that to me made perfect sense, and I say this as a big fan of both characters. Blade is ultimately a guy in a metal suit with a metal sword. He should be conductive as hell. Stronger has metal in him, but electricity is practically his lifeblood so he's built for it. It's established as being his domain since 1975. Blade happens to use lightning as one of his powers, but I don't recall if they ever made him resistant to it. Pretty sure Garren and possible Leangle were shown to take damage from electricity directly. Conceptually, it makes sense to me.

So I can buy the idea that Daishocker could basically create something that recreates all the Rider powers because it's been established since the beginning that Shocker and it's successors have access to pretty much anything- super science, magic, extraterrestrial technology, etc. Even if they didn't have the technology to show it all, they still had the ideas there. When they did show it, it makes sense in retrospect. Take any of the "fake" Riders in the old series- I can see Decade as an extension of that. When you factor in the Heisei villains, that just seals it. Kanzaki Shiro alone has some of the most technobabbly pseudo-mystical horseshit fairytale science I've ever seen. Team him up with Geddon and we should have magical flying pyramid warships that can time-travel by lunchtime.

And I'll also step up to the plate for the Villains United thing... I love it. I do wish Decade's staff had cared enough about the idea to set it up earlier and explore it to its full extent. While I don't want to go about spoiling something that likely won't be written down for some time, I had a similar idea were I to ever do a Kamen Rider story. The big nagging question of course is why. I say that you'd really have to do it with the original series versions of everybody for it to make sense. And they'd have to be from post-series (this is where it gets complicated.)

Let's say you're Daguba, or the Overlord guy, or Archy, or whatnot. You're brought back to life by someone who promises you your hearts' desire and all they want from you is to help them destroy the Kamen Riders, including the dorks who ruined everything in the first place. Maybe it's an awfully naive view to take, but I like the idea that evil can form an alliance out of pure hatred. Kamen Rider is a greater threat than any other and if they kicked your ass once, you should rightfully want to see nothing more than their complete and utter annihilation, even if it means making a deal with the devil himself (and the Great Leader comes pretty close.)

The problem with Decade of course is they're presumably all alternate versions. These Unknown apparently lack an Overlord, or he's still arsing around in a hospital somewhere. The Daguba-equivalent got his butt kicked so what's a Grongi to do? Like I said, I think it would work better with the original versions who have solid reasons to hate the Riders. They've gone through things the first time, realized their methods failed, so let's try the new guys' plan. With Decade you have to fanonize a helluva lot because the writers are more interested in big set pieces and ideas than in the nitty-gritty, even when that includes important details.

What Decade really missed was actually taking the time out to explain that idea. We get Apollo Geist calling out Crisis, but what we really could have used was a scene explaining just how they all got convinced. I'd imagine it would invoke the very counter-arguments people have against Daishocker- why are the Unknown buddy-buddies with everyone else? Why are the Orphenoch and Fangire not at each other's throats? Why are the Mirror Monsters even there?

It's because on their own, they all failed. It's probably past Yonemura, but you could almost make for an interesting anti-racism message there, given the Heisei series' propensity to do villain races as opposed to organizations. It's like, look what happened when you all tried to be your own dumb bigoted selves, fighting with each other or just not even trying to get organized. You got your asses kicked. Join us, and you can have entire worlds to play with. The dark attraction, the whole seduction-of-evil thing... it's awesome but the show really needed to show it and not just tell it.

You know what though? Ultimately, after Narutaki making a jackass of himself for most of the show, it was just a breath of fresh air to have a proper villain like Apollo Geist back. Call me an old-school bastard, I don't care. I'm fine with the idea that if Doctor-fucking-Shinigami tells you to help him conquer the universe, any self-respecting Rider villain drops what they're doing and joins in. But then, I'm approaching this all from the point of someone for whom Shocker is the king. Every Rider villain is a literal or spiritual extension of it so it makes perfect sense to me for everything to return to it, especially if they've got a good reason to like revenge. Decade didn't really do the best job of conveying that, but it got the idea out there, and I think it was one of the show's best.

 

[Lynxara]

Well on the other side, I actually not only like that Decade was made by Daishocker, but I prefer that explanation.

Conceptually, I really like this myself. The Great Leader's power was always implied to be nigh-infinite, perhaps pure elemental evil. Playing around with that and the trope of the ludicrously overpowered Heisei Rider could've been cool.

I just... wish Tsukasa's origin had ever come up outside of the movies. Someone call me on this if I'm wrong, but I don't think a single episode of the TV show ever directly deals with Tsukasa being the Great Leader (or his intended vessel) at all.

 

[musashi03]

I just... wish Tsukasa's origin had ever come up outside of the movies. Someone call me on this if I'm wrong, but I don't think a single episode of the TV show ever directly deals with Tsukasa being the Great Leader (or his intended vessel) at all.

The only hinting of Tsukasa's origin I can remember was that of Daiki's debut with that inside joke with the sea-cucumber thing. :redface2:

 

[NeonZ]

Its not about special effects or whatever BS some old-school fan will try hide behind...its about concepts.

If you look at it conceptually, everything Rider related derived from an initial Shocker creation. So, Shocker creating a counter to later Riders makes sense, conceptually.

The show never gets into it, but the official stats of the Decade Driver mention that it has 6 stones, each one for one of Earth's elements... combining them, it basically can create anything, only limited by the data it has, which is based on the cards.

Conceptually, the Great Leader also seemed to be pretty much limitless by the end of the Showa era. Cyborg form killed? No problem. Stone giant killed? No problem. Giant dragon killed? No problem. It didn't matter what happened to him, he always seemingly returned in a new body and with stronger abilities in the next series. In ZX, he was this translucent head in the sky.

In RX, when RX killed the Crisis Emperor, who was either the Great Leader or basically an alternate universe counterpart, his entire universe, home to an alternate Earth, pretty much went with him.

It would have been perfectly FINE if the Decadriver had been made by Sumiko Ozawa, who created the G3-X armor (which could keep up with Agito, who smacked around Agents of Creation), with the help of all the other Riders/smart people in the Rider-verses.

No, that wouldn't work at all. Agito has one of the lowest tech levels in the Rider universes, considering how clunky and primitive G3 was compared to most other Riders. There's no way they should make the strongest technological Rider.

The Grongi would just see a group of Dai-Shocker's level and enjoy playing a "game" with a group more interesting than humans. The Unknown, and their boss, would notice Dai-Shocker has the power to traverse universes, declare it frighteningly close to the ability to evolve, and attack. The Mirror Monsters would not team up anyway, as they're not very intelligent. The Undead don't care about any game except the Battle Fight, with the exception of a few Royals. And the villains from Den-O exist to destroy timelines anyway; why would they team-up to fix them so they can rule?

This is actually a complaint I have too, but I don't think it's that bad. Shocker has used and controlled somehow what basically amounts to wild monsters before, so using Mirror Monsters isn't out of place. Orphenocs, Imagins, Fangires and Worms were basically (evil, for worms) humans as far as their mindset goes. Any individual members could join Dai-Shocker without problems. It's like asking for reasons to explain the random Shocker soldiers joining the organization. Makamous were at least partially scientific experiments, so they fit in pretty well.

So, the real problems which required better explanations are only the Grongi, Unknown and Undead (although these last ones often completely ignored the Battle Fight in Blade itself...).

Regarding your points about concepts... So, because they have a higher concept going on, the Showa Riders shouldn't be able to compare to them? That makes no sense, especially considering how they're all derivative concepts of the old Riders anyway.

In actual raw power, Rider 2 was able to catch an airplane by jumping and blow up a building with a Rider Kick in the original series. So, it's not like they lack feats just because their special effects were more primitive.

I just... wish Tsukasa's origin had ever come up outside of the movies. Someone call me on this if I'm wrong, but I don't think a single episode of the TV show ever directly deals with Tsukasa being the Great Leader (or his intended vessel) at all.

The DCD Shocker logo appears in some scenes of the tv show, which hints at Decade having some importance there, but that's it...

 

[Kaji Motomiya]

This may be a bit out of topic, but there was a picture someone posted on HJU that was a Japanese scan of Kamen Rider Spirits. The scene was when ZX fought Judo, who looked like a golden ZX (according to Wiki). And then after that, Judo would change into other Riders, though one of them I remember was Super-1 and Stronger, I think.

So quick question. When was that chapter released? Because I do not know when exactly Kamen Rider Spirits ended its first run in 2009 until Shin Kamen Rider Spirits followed.

(If you get where I'm getting at, that's fine, you can answer directly. And this is not related to the post musashi made about Tsukasa resembling a Judo-possessed Murasame Ryo.)