Do you believe Decade can beat ALL the other Riders? And SHOULD he be able to?

[Lynxara]

Decade is about Kamen Rider. I think that's pretty obvious.

If you honestly, seriously think that is an acceptable answer to my question, then I have nothing further to say to you. Well, no... I can also say that I'm pretty disappointed.

"Kamen Rider" is not a theme. "Kamen Rider" is an intellectual propertly. Hey, you know why the original few series of Kamen Rider were good? Because they were all about something.

 

[Ryuutaros]

Decade was great but failed after Hibiki's world. They should've ended it there since Decade's purpose of revisiting each series in a refreshed story etc to introduce new fans to the older shows was done.

After the heisei Worlds Decade had no purpose left. It would've been a great mini-series if it was like that.

 

[Lynxara]

Decade was great but failed after Hibiki's world.

Actually, you know, I can agree with this. I would put the break between "good Decade" and "meh Decade" at the end of the Agito arc, since IIRC that was the final episode by original writer Shou Aikawa, but Hibiki is only a few episodes later.

"Good Decade," before the movies and the extraneous crossovers, was clearly going to be about something. It's hard to comment on fundamentally unfinished work, but I had to critique it I would say that that the series was about the importance of defining your own identity yourself, instead of letting others do it for you.

Early on a lot of cryptic people tell Tsukasa a lot of cryptic things about who he "really" is and what he "should" be doing. Yet Tsukasa never, ever plays the role fate assigns him (or at least, he won't play it straight). Tsukasa does what he thinks is best, based on his own assessment of himself and his situation.

In the first half of the series you see Tsukasa creating himself through his decisions, slowly but surely, as he interacts with other young people called to heroic action in other visions of reality. Up through the Agito arc, each world Tsukasa visits adds some new facet to his personality.

This makes the eventual direction that the second creative team ultimately took the franchise in all the more disappointing, now that I think about it. Most crossovers are insubstantial at best when it comes to themes, but Decade could've and should've been more.

 

[Igadevil]

Part of my big problem with Decade, or at least with the last movie, is how they can't seem to settle on just what Decade is.

Now I love the idea of him being the ultimate weapon, created by every Rider villain teaming up to destroy the Riders, and he's forgotten. Perhaps the big battle in episode 1 wasn't a dream, but could have been the moment when Decade (and the universe) was shattered- leaving him stuck on a backwater world with no memory of who he's meant to be until the chance arises for him to atone. It's simple and to the point. It makes sense with the original idea- Decade travels the worlds, makes friends, acquires more power, but when he reaches the end and the chance to reclaim the life he lost, he has changed along the way going from a villain to a hero. It's like an unintentional redemption.

Unfortunately there's everything else. The whole self-fulfilling prophecy/Decade must destroy to save/worlds colliding/stories and memories things really doesn't jive with the other explanation. It might have come first, but I think it's the less-cool one.

I can buy that Daishocker could create the ultimate Rider who, despite a moment of weakness in trying to re-assume his old life, realizes what his journey was really about and accepts his place in the Rider family. I have a harder time buying that Tsukasa's response to being attacked by the 9 Heisei Riders is to go apeshit, turn everyone into cards, get a new mask for some reason, then let Natsumi kill him so he can save reality and come back with some CGI assistance to go help Double fight the all-new, all-annoying Neo Organism.

As I said the first time, I think Movie War was trying to go for a metafictional angle, but it really doesn't work. It's got some good ideas, but the whole thing really doesn't hold together with what's gone on before. It'd have been more satisfying if the final revelation was that Decade is a TV series. Narutaki is just an angry internet fanboy, complaining about Decade ruining his favorite shows and injecting cameo appearances wherever possible. The show ends with Tsukasa walking off set as the lights turn off and Yusuke raiding the commissary. That would have been total bullshit, but it'd be bold. What we have feels kind of limp, as if they had planned a more spectacular ending and then did something completely different. Oh wait...

So I suppose you can say that if you go with the idea of Decade as Daishocker's trump card, I think he could theoretically be able to beat all the Riders... though in practice, he shouldn't be able to. If Decade should have swiped anything from Spirits, it's the idea that ultimately, the STRONGEST RIDER EVER!!1!â„¢ still sucks as long as he's evil. I think especially to that part where ZX and Rider 1 kick each other... and it's ZX's leg that shatters. He's the Perfect Cyborg, but he's playing on the wrong team. Evil simply can not ultimately triumph over Good in the Riderverse. He might be newer and shinier than Rider 1, stronger and faster even. But at that point he lacks the human spirit that is Kamen Rider's real greatest strength.

 

[NeonZ]

If you honestly, seriously think that is an acceptable answer to my question, then I have nothing further to say to you. Well, no... I can also say that I'm pretty disappointed.

"Kamen Rider" is not a theme. "Kamen Rider" is an intellectual propertly. Hey, you know why the original few series of Kamen Rider were good? Because they were all about something.

There is something called "meta-text", you know. I'm not saying Decade executed that theme well, but it was pretty clearly the main intention, it's especially obvious with the blatant reference to "stories" in the beginning and ending.

Even what you mention in your other message to be part of Decade's theme is just a fragment of this. A force said to be evil ends up used for good. That's a basic part of Kamen Rider.

 

[Lynxara]

It makes sense with the original idea- Decade travels the worlds, makes friends, acquires more power, but when he reaches the end and the chance to reclaim the life he lost, he has changed along the way going from a villain to a hero.

This is kind of what I thought Decade was going to do early on. I'm still sort of baffled that Yonemura's team opted for the metafictional explanation rather than "Tsukasa tried being the villain he was created to be, then tried being a hero, and ended up liking who he was as a hero better."

I mean, that's... you know, thats a good solid concept. It's exceptionally Rider-y but in that way that really only the Heisei shows ever would've attempted. It stands on its own and would've made the show entertaining to people just discovering Rider.

Why on Earth did they make the show about... well, all the stuff it ended up being about instead? I don't get it. Aikawa left a perfectly sound blueprint for Yonemura, who seems to have abandoned it out of sheer capriciousness.

It might have come first, but I think it's the less-cool one.

I don't believe for a second that Aikawa had any intention of Decade including the memories/re-birth stuff when he wrote the first 13 episodes. There's no substantial groundwork for it there. My guess would be that Yonemura decided on that angle for the character.

There is something called "meta-text", you know.

Yes, there is such a thing as meta-text. And if your story is just about meta-text, it's fundamentally terrible. Meta-text is a means, not an end. It's just a different way of communicating your themes, by playing with your audience's knowledge of writing conventions.

Simply saying, "Look, I'm being meta!" is of no consequence whatsoever. It is not interesting, it is not clever, it is certainly not worthy of praise in a post-modern society where even the broadest, pulpiest storytelling is going to be deeply self-aware.

A force said to be evil ends up used for good. That's a basic part of Kamen Rider.

Yes, but it's not the interesting part, nor could it really be considered a theme. It's too insubstantial. It's not relevant to anything people actually experience. In a heroic context, you can use it mainly to build up a broader metaphor for the importance of personal choice.

Tsukasa's self-determination is no "fragment" of anything. That's the overarching theme because that's the part of the story that could possibly matter to someone. If you write an entire series that's just about "a force for evil is ends up being used for good!" with no broader context, it's a waste of time.

 

[Ryuutaros]

As I stated before they should've ended Decade after Hibiki's world plus a final two-three episode arc that gathers the 9 AR characters together for a finale. The theme of the world travelling was discovering who he really is for himself and not because someone told him who he was supposed to be. Fighting fate in a sense.

This would've been a great mini-series if it was like that since its purpose was to celebrate 10 years of Heisei Riders by revisiting the past ten years with a refreshed setting to introduce the older shows to new fans.

Finally a movie that gathers (Or attempts to, hey three originals would've satisfied me when they are on screen together anyway) the originals together for the final touch of this project. This could be used to finish the story about Tsukasa rejecting his fate and becoming a Saviour instead of a Destroyer.



This is my opinion on how they could've handled Decade instead of what we got :/

 

[NeonZ]

I don't believe for a second that Aikawa had any intention of Decade including the memories/re-birth stuff when he wrote the first 13 episodes. There's no substantial groundwork for it there. My guess would be that Yonemura decided on that angle for the character.

Only if you ignore the large amount of exposition given in the first episode in favor of your own speculation. Oh, wait, that's exactly what you did.:sweat:

Wataru's exposition in the first episode. The narrator ending every episode saying "Destroy everything, correct everything!"... It's pretty obvious the "rebirth" was an intended part of the series since the beginning. The connection to "memories" might have been something done by Yonemura, considering how that part specifically had no groundwork, but it's pretty obvious that destruction and rebirth to connect stories was something intended since the beginning.

Decade had no great staff change, aside from the script writer. A new script writer in those conditions isn't going to radically send to series to a completely different place. This isn't a Hibiki situation.

Yes, there is such a thing as meta-text. And if your story is just about meta-text, it's fundamentally terrible. Meta-text is a means, not an end. It's just a different way of communicating your themes, by playing with your audience's knowledge of writing conventions.

The writers of my country(Brazil), in the later half of the 19th Century, spent years mostly writing about Meta-Text, arguing that the text should live by itself. Meta-text for its own sake has been an acceptable writing convention at some points of history.

Tsukasa's self-determination is no "fragment" of anything. That's the overarching theme because that's the part of the story that could possibly matter to someone.

I disagree. Even if that's the only part that matters to you, it's clearly just a fragment of a large whole. I also disagree about it being dropped.

Even in Movie Wars, when he's seemingly just following a destiny revealed to him by others, it's still his own actions, the story that he created by himself, that makes him return and fight as an hero at the end.

 

[Lynxara]

The theme of the world travelling was discovering who he really is for himself and not because someone told him who he was supposed to be. Fighting fate in a sense.

Thinking it over, this approach to Decade also would've made it a better celebration of Heisei. People make much of how disparate the modern Rider shows are, but I think all of them engage with the self-determination theme we're talking about at one point or another.

Decade could've served as a grand summation for that in a lot of ways, while also connecting Heisei to what Showa was about. After all, the way Heisei explores self-determination is very different from the Showa style, but ultimately Rider-1's rebellion against Shocker is an act of self-determination.

Eesh, what a wasted opportunity. It bugs me the more I think about it.

Only if you ignore the large amount of exposition given in the first episode in favor of your own speculation.

No, I'm just ignoring the interpretation of it you favor as "obvious," because I don't think it's obvious at all. I think Yonemura tries to force that particular interpretation with stuff in his half of the show, to get the story where he wants it to go. I do not think the material itself makes the same interpretation in any way inevitable or necessary.

I have a broader issue with you here, though. The thing with stories is that you can't actually tell someone they're interpreting it wrong unless you subscribe to the theory of authorial intent. Even if you did, Decade's a poor candidate for that since, in all, five different writers created the scripts. For instance, I don't think your ideas of Decade are wrong, but I also think they are no more valid than anyone else's.

As it happens, I don't subscribe to the theory of authorial intent at all. I reject it whole-heartedly in favor of the primacy of the individual's interpretation, for a number of reasons that aren't really worth going into here. If you don't like that, then you probably don't want to discuss writing with me. I'm more interested in discussing a range of opinions developed by audience members based on their own experience than the story's One True Meaning.

The narrator ending every episode saying "Destroy everything, correct everything!"

Yes, because the best way to analyze a long-form television series is to look for guidance from its end-of-episode catchphrase. Obviously, the true meaning of Evangelion was encapsulated by "And next time, there'll be more fanservice!"

The writers of my country(Brazil), in the later half of the 19th Century, spent years mostly writing about Meta-Text, arguing that the text should live by itself.

You actually damn Decade with faint praise just by making this comparison. Consider that you're going back to the 19th century to defend the writing style of a story... written in the 21st century. I would suggest that it's unacceptable to write a 21st century story at the same general level of sophistication as material written two centuries prior.

 

[Diaxiann]

Decade beats all Riders if written by Toshiko Inoue mid season with no ideas, because by that time everyone starts dying because he runs out of ideas.