Why RYUKI is the most *realistic* Kamen Rider show of the Decade?!

[Shinobi Shaw]

One problem with you is that you're too smart. I'll admit that I'm not as knowledgeable as others on here and would like to know more. Instead of properly explaining you just assumed that everyone would be on the same page as you and pull out more complex theories and possibilities even when it wasn't the case. All the while you haven't properly explained fully as to why Ryuki is the most realistic, adding more detail not included in the opening. Don't say to go read off somewhere or that it'll be too long to explain here, it makes sense to you so you should be able to pinpoint all the necessary facts. If not then don't bother because this seems more like a university professor talking down to a student on his intelligence.

I am not trying to shove my intelligence, ideas and thoughts in anyone's face at all.

A lot of times it really is quite a feat to summarize what I am trying to explain but can't because it will literally take pages to do so and charts/graphs.

I would explain it more if this was a *visual* format but this is a forum and so it's a written one and is not the proper place for detailed explanations.

But I am naturally inclined to express myself in such a way and it is not being done out of a reactionary desire to 'prove' myself to anyone here.

This is all you ever say whenever anyone tries to counter you. What entitles you to be the one who can understand the situation and be the one who can know when others don't? What insight do you have that other members don't? If you find no debates or discussions here that you can take part in, it's not because the members here are inferior or whatever perception you have, it's because you seem to be defensive about people picking apart theories you put work into constructing.

First of all you're completely misinterpreting the root of the question at hand.

The question was more about the emotional flow of the subsequent actions that were found in this thread that lead to an 'argument' between some of the members here and I.

It was NOT about the intellectual discussion of the topic whatsoever, not about the ideas and thoughts of an intellectual stance that were expressed on this thread.

It WAS however about the emotional *flow* of the thread, hence your argument to bring it back to the intellectual side is faulty.

And my answer to the person who asked it was that the person was not seeing things (as their perception was shortsighted because of his emotional attachment to the culture of the board and its members) from *my* perspective.

And as a result he does NOT have an objective view of the events that transpired and surely does not see it from all angles.

I have mentioned in this thread a few times how I have seen parts of the other members perspective but it surely has not been proven to be the other way around (i.e. the opponents seeing it from my side).

So we have one side who is partly blind and the other not as much.

Kuuga's just as guilty as any of the shows after it. It may've had more decent writing to make it less blatant, but the sheer number of forms that Kuuga had makes your statement hard to even consider.

NO, because Kuuga's mission statement when it was brought into production was to bring the old Kamen Rider franchise for a new generation and give it a modern spin. The writers in their intricate writing for such a format (it being targeted to kids and old fans) was to express a particular idea and a story to tell. Kuuga is a storyteller (like the other early '00s Rider shows) and its goal was not mainly in the merchandising sector, but in its plot development.

The forms that Kuuga took were essential to the story and this was expressed *clearly* from the get go (perhaps it may passed you by.....).

Where as the latter Rider era (i.e. second half of the '00s Riders) were blatantly about merchandising and sales (especially Dikeido and Den-O) and its mission statement was different.

I mentioned that Kuuga's mission statement was different then say Dikeido and Den-O because of this very fact.

The stupendous power of the "appeal to authority" fallacy.

More Mirroring I see.....


As a final note to this post, I would like to say that the state of Toku today being of course a sham and mediocrity of its former self is definitely reflected in its newer fanbase, mediocrity can only attract the mediocre and the mediocre can only be attracted by mediocrity.

 

[Algo Fonix]

NO, because Kuuga's mission statement when it was brought into production was to bring the old Kamen Rider franchise for a new generation and give it a modern spin. The writers in their intricate writing for such a format (it being targeted to kids and old fans) was to express a particular idea and a story to tell. Kuuga is a storyteller (like the other early '00s Rider shows) and its goal was not mainly in the merchandising sector, but in its plot development.

The forms that Kuuga took were essential to the story and this was expressed *clearly* from the get go (perhaps it may passed you by.....).

Where as the latter Rider era (i.e. second half of the '00s Riders) were blatantly about merchandising and sales (especially Dikeido and Den-O) and its mission statement was different.

Kuuga was put into production to make money from fans of the older shows and create new fans of the franchise out of the younger folk. Toei is more interested in making a dollar, than creating some type of deep intricate storyline. Kuuga's writing is better than a lot of the other shows in the franchise, I'll give you that. However, you seem to be mistaken, thinking they don't have merchandise sales and marketing in the front of their minds when they're shooting these shows.

If it wasn't made to sell whatever products Bandai was shoving into stores, why make storylines where Godai essential got gold accents on a few parts of his armor? Oh, to sell the action figure. That's because the desire to sell toys influenced the way the writers created these storylines. Sure it's not as blatant, like I said before, but the show is just as guilty of it as Den-O or any of the others.

 

[KingRanger]

Shinobi, I know what happens when you start insulting everyone when expressing your opinions. I did that myself. I made a lot of enemies doing it. Maybe you should take a step back and look at what you are saying here. I am not talking about what you think of Ryuki as some of that is pretty cool IMO, but when you insult the entire HJU community, that is just going to far. Don't you think?

 

[Shinobi Shaw]

Shinobi, I know what happens when you start insulting everyone when expressing your opinions. I did that myself. I made a lot of enemies doing it. Maybe you should take a step back and look at what you are saying here. I am not talking about what you think of Ryuki as some of that is pretty cool IMO, but when you insult the entire HJU community, that is just going to far. Don't you think?

Wow, King Ranger? One of the TV-Nihon crew?

If it is you, I have utmost respect for what you guys do and I think that you're right and I should not be so harsh.

Thanks for the input!

Kuuga was put into production to make money from fans of the older shows and create new fans of the franchise out of the younger folk.

This is such a cynical disrespectful attack on the writers and you're undermining their work based upon the actions of TOEI executives.

The writers and the designers who are behind the Heisei era KR are part of the creative class and they do not share that mission statement.

Toei is more interested in making a dollar, than creating some type of deep intricate storyline. Kuuga's writing is better than a lot of the other shows in the franchise, I'll give you that. However, you seem to be mistaken, thinking they don't have merchandise sales and marketing in the front of their minds when they're shooting these shows.

NO, that is not what I said.

I said that Kuuga's *mission statement* when it was put forth into production in 2000 was and is different from KR's current one.

This original mission statement of creativity, plot development and characterization was basically "hijacked" by greedy TOEI executives who in seeing the vast potential money maker in this growing revived franchise decided to take a more *aggressive* stance in their merchandising and marketing strategies to make more money.

They did not manage to truly implement this until Kabuto.

If it wasn't made to sell whatever products Bandai was shoving into stores, why make storylines where Godai essential got gold accents on a few parts of his armor? Oh, to sell the action figure. That's because the desire to sell toys influenced the way the writers created these storylines. Sure it's not as blatant, like I said before, but the show is just as guilty of it as Den-O or any of the others.

I know I keep repeating this but......

NO, because as I mentioned above Kuuga's mission statement to unite a group of individuals who were brought forth to revive a franchise for a new generation to foster their creativity, knowledge, expression, and love for a potential expression of art was not as heavily influenced or persuade by the TOEI executives as it did in the latter half of the decade.

Basically the early heisei rider years gave *freedom* to the writers and designers which created a successful format to this old franchise.

Then when TOEI executives realized that they could milk this for all its worth (as if Sentai was not enough) then they decided for the higher ups to have more input.

This led to what I like to refer as........ THE FALL that came from the Post-Hibiki years.

 

[KingRanger]

I haven't been with tv-nihon for a couple years, not since I was forced out. I am glad you decided to go a little easier. You have some cool thoughts on Ryuki. Though your reply above IMO is a bit off.

The writers of the shows might have good intentions, but Toei has final say. If they want something changed, it gets changed. Kuuga had all the forms he did to sell toys. He had all the weapons he did to sell toys. This to me is fact. Though I would be open to debate on the issue.

I also think you are wrong about the toei hijacking thing. Toku from way back when was something done for not only fun, but to sell merchandise. It got to be bigger as the years went on, but toys were sold in the past from the shows. The different between then and now IMO, is that now the shows are pretty much 24 minute commercials for the toys. The writing has suffered. This was one of the reasons I didn't care for Go-Onger, and a reason I just stopped watching shinkenger. That said, I do not see a company selling toys as being greedy. They are out to make money. We all have a choice to not watch the shows, or watch them with the understanding that toku is different now than in the past.

 

[Inui Takumi]

And my answer to the person who asked it was that the person was not seeing things (as their perception was shortsighted because of his emotional attachment to the culture of the board and its members) from *my* perspective.

And as a result he does NOT have an objective view of the events that transpired and surely does not see it from all angles.

I have mentioned in this thread a few times how I have seen parts of the other members perspective but it surely has not been proven to be the other way around (i.e. the opponents seeing it from my side).

So we have one side who is partly blind and the other not as much.

As a final note to this post, I would like to say that the state of Toku today being of course a sham and mediocrity of its former self is definitely reflected in its newer fanbase, mediocrity can only attract the mediocre and the mediocre can only be attracted by mediocrity.

This is what I dont get. How is it that your perspective on things regarding the Ryuki theory as well as your impressions on this thread and the fandom at large is the one that is less blind and is considerate of angles while everyone else's isnt? You're just as much emotionally attached to your board as many of us are to ours. How is your side right but everyone else is wrong?

Both sides got emotional, of course. But we were the ones challenging your thoughts to begin with while you were the one brushing us off as being completely wrong. How does that work?

Wow, King Ranger? One of the TV-Nihon crew?

If it is you, I have utmost respect for what you guys do and I think that you're right and I should not be so harsh.

Thanks for the input!

woah...either you're being sarcastic here or there is something messed up here. People have said the same thing many times before. No offense to Kingranger, but as soon as a former fansubber comes to the thread, you agree wholeheartedly? That's something else.

You know what, I think Im finally done with this. I appreciate what you tried to do with this thread. But obviously a lot of us dont see eye to eye. If you decided to make another thread with some interesting ideas, Ill check it out. Hopefully you'll be true to your word and you'll actually listen to what people have to say next time as well as be a bit more accepting of opposing ideas.

 

[wyyc]

Shinobi, I know what happens when you start insulting everyone when expressing your opinions. I did that myself. I made a lot of enemies doing it. Maybe you should take a step back and look at what you are saying here. I am not talking about what you think of Ryuki as some of that is pretty cool IMO, but when you insult the entire HJU community, that is just going to far. Don't you think?

Cool, you're really a different person... :thumbs:

 

[Algo Fonix]

This is such a cynical disrespectful attack on the writers and you're undermining their work based upon the actions of TOEI executives.

The writers and the designers who are behind the Heisei era KR are part of the creative class and they do not share that mission statement.




NO, that is not what I said.

I said that Kuuga's *mission statement* when it was put forth into production in 2000 was and is different from KR's current one.

This original mission statement of creativity, plot development and characterization was basically "hijacked" by greedy TOEI executives who in seeing the vast potential money maker in this growing revived franchise decided to take a more *aggressive* stance in their merchandising and marketing strategies to make more money.

They did not manage to truly implement this until Kabuto.





I know I keep repeating this but......

NO, because as I mentioned above Kuuga's mission statement to unite a group of individuals who were brought forth to revive a franchise for a new generation to foster their creativity, knowledge, expression, and love for a potential expression of art was not as heavily influenced or persuade by the TOEI executives as it did in the latter half of the decade.

Basically the early heisei rider years gave *freedom* to the writers and designers which created a successful format to this old franchise.

Then when TOEI executives realized that they could milk this for all its worth (as if Sentai was not enough) then they decided for the higher ups to have more input.

This led to what I like to refer as........ THE FALL that came from the Post-Hibiki years.

Were you a writer on Kuuga?

 

[rtys]

I haven't been with tv-nihon for a couple years, not since I was forced out. I am glad you decided to go a little easier. You have some cool thoughts on Ryuki. Though your reply above IMO is a bit off.

The writers of the shows might have good intentions, but Toei has final say. If they want something changed, it gets changed. Kuuga had all the forms he did to sell toys. He had all the weapons he did to sell toys. This to me is fact. Though I would be open to debate on the issue.

I also think you are wrong about the toei hijacking thing. Toku from way back when was something done for not only fun, but to sell merchandise. It got to be bigger as the years went on, but toys were sold in the past from the shows. The different between then and now IMO, is that now the shows are pretty much 24 minute commercials for the toys. The writing has suffered. This was one of the reasons I didn't care for Go-Onger, and a reason I just stopped watching shinkenger. That said, I do not see a company selling toys as being greedy. They are out to make money. We all have a choice to not watch the shows, or watch them with the understanding that toku is different now than in the past.

That's more or less what I'm getting at.
The Story feels disjointed from the Merchandise.

The writers might feel hindered because they have to incorporate the Merchandise in by hook or by crook.

 

[Shinobi Shaw]

The writers of the shows might have good intentions, but Toei has final say. If they want something changed, it gets changed. Kuuga had all the forms he did to sell toys. He had all the weapons he did to sell toys. This to me is fact. Though I would be open to debate on the issue.

I partly agree in the sense that we can say that there was some intention in making these upgrade powers of Kuuga, but I do not agree that it was the main article in the Kuuga mission statement.

I also think you are wrong about the toei hijacking thing. Toku from way back when was something done for not only fun, but to sell merchandise. It got to be bigger as the years went on, but toys were sold in the past from the shows. The different between then and now IMO, is that now the shows are pretty much 24 minute commercials for the toys. The writing has suffered. This was one of the reasons I didn't care for Go-Onger, and a reason I just stopped watching shinkenger. That said, I do not see a company selling toys as being greedy. They are out to make money. We all have a choice to not watch the shows, or watch them with the understanding that toku is different now than in the past.

I agree with you in some and in others I don't, but for the most I do agree that it has gotten terribly out of hand over the years.

This is what I dont get. How is it that your perspective on things regarding the Ryuki theory as well as your impressions on this thread and the fandom at large is the one that is less blind and is considerate of angles while everyone else's isnt? You're just as much emotionally attached to your board as many of us are to ours. How is your side right but everyone else is wrong?

Both sides got emotional, of course. But we were the ones challenging your thoughts to begin with while you were the one brushing us off as being completely wrong. How does that work?

Well first of all you are again mixing two sequence of events that should be categorized separately, there was the following.....

1. The Emotional flow of the thread

Which as we know started because some of the members downright attacked me and my ideas and thoughts, I had to defend myself in this situation and thought that at one point it was necessary to use extreme measures.

Think of when a *mob* is attacking a specific person because the *mob* does not understand the ideas and thoughts of someone who looks at things from a unique perspective. Naturally the person will either run or fight, and I chose to fight.

2. The Intellectual discussion of the thread.

In this case many members wanted to challenge me because of the ideas and thoughts that I was expressing in the initial argument, many members either don't do the research (and I can't do it for them as I am not their babysitter) or cannot grasp certain terms and ideas. Of course they blame their own insecure inadequacies onto me (of course, it's easier to blame the other person then look within yourself and see the truth) and truly believe that I am just not communicating well enough and confusing them.

Second, I am not *attached* to anything at all, I like the guys at JH and we get along well and we have been talking about Toku for years.

I do believe they are more detailed oriented and they are of a certain intellectual nature that cannot be grasped at HJU with the exception of maybe 10 members or so.

And so I believe that I should defend the integrity of a board that has been attacked by the MOB repeatedly (just recently so BTW) and that the MOB does not seem to understand.

So there are misunderstandings between the members at JH and the MOB at HJU (excluding the excellent contributors which I can count to about 10-15 members here).

I wish that the Mob can come to their sense, but they have not and they WON'T. And you know why? Because they blind, they cannot see what we at JH see.

In conclusion 1 group is handicapped and the other is gifted.

woah...either you're being sarcastic here or there is something messed up here. People have said the same thing many times before. No offense to Kingranger, but as soon as a former fansubber comes to the thread, you agree wholeheartedly? That's something else.

Excuse me, but you don't anything (probably because you're a newer fan) to make that judgement.

But I know Kingranger since 2003!

I remember when he started TV-NIHON with the other members and I appreciated his contribution which led many people get into TOKU.

I appreciate any member of that group, because they are contributors.

And I have respect for anyone who was part of the Early '00s toku experience because they basically made the foundation for Toku to be so popular in the West.

Were you a writer on Kuuga?

I am a writer, researcher, and a philosopher, so I understand the creative process and sympathize with them (as I know what it's like to deal with producers).