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wozplan.png
Time's up; you can't Worm your way out of this one.

Welcome to the discussion thread for Kamen Rider Zi-O, episode 38; "2019: The One Chosen by Kabuto".
(Episode title's translation may vary depending on your fansub group of choice.)
This week: After destroying the meteorite, the Time Riders learn that an even larger one is on the way with Sougo and Woz attempting to destroy it despite Another Kabuto's attempts to stop them. Meanwhile, Tsukasa leads Tsukuyomi to a strange house so she can learn a shocking truth.

This thread was made with Toku Prime's permission. And remember, this is a SPOILER ZONE! If you are trying to avoid spoilers, this is not the place for you.​
 
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So they repeat what they did to hibiki.
Actually Kagami become Kabuto is something unavoidable, he is the only cast which close enough to be one. But is it necessary to add dialogue where they are get acknowledge from previous user?

Because in case of Kabuto and Gattack Zecter, they didn't choose their user but to wait for them to grow to their standard as they are programmed to choose those user anyway.
 
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In Hibiki's case, there were multiple things they could have done to avoid Kiriya becoming Hibiki. One would be having Hibiki appear in suit only and use his stock audio tracks, or two they could have had someone else become Hibiki in Kiriya's place because I don't think it was ever the theme of Hibiki's story to begin with to chase after someone else's mantle. I mean, that was the point of Todoroki's arc, when he decided to take on the name Todoroki instead of taking on and succeeding in Zanki's name. They could have easily done this, but no, we needed the unlikable Kiriya to be forced into becoming Hibiki because just when he was finally admitting that he wasn't right to become the next Hibiki, they backtrack that development of him finally calling himself Kyoki and becoming his own man, to let him become Hibiki just so Zi-O could get the Ridewatch.

With Kagami becoming Kabuto, that's more acceptable, but still problematic. I think it was stated at some point that the Gatack Zector was supposed to be one of the most powerful Zectors out there. It established him as an equal to Tendo in the main series, since Tendo seems to be the more experienced fighter, but the boost Kagami gets out of Gatack kind of levels that, and this is outside of Tendo having the Hyper Zector to pump himself up even more and being the primary main protagonist, and a sense of coming into his own, that he didn't need to be like Tendo to be considered a hero, that was kind of the point of him becoming TheBee at one point. He kept trying to prove his worth with becoming TheBee and in a sense, competing with Tendo. It wasn't until he finally realized he needed to be his own person and own his identity that the Gatack Zector finally acknowledged him.

Having Kagami become Kabuto just pretty much tells us "oh, so if Tendo was never in the story, Kagami would have gotten that Kabuto Zector from the start and we actually didn't need to bother giving him all that development just to end up here".

Like, I get it. Hiro probably is too big to come back to play Kabuto. But again, they could have easily done the same thing I mentioned with Hibiki. Appear out of suit, stock audio, and with Kabuto's case, the clock up will actually help explain why his appearances are so limited. He's in and out pretty fast.

But of course, this is Zi-O. It's going to use the most of the returning actors as it can since Decade got heavily criticized for not doing so, even if the returning actor's character already had an established development or route they should go to next, that doesn't matter because they can just write it out of the story since Zi-O needs his Ridewatches.
 
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I have different idea, rather than make them come in and out suddenly, why not use side character to give them Ridewatch.
I mean Wizard was given from Nito, even W was asked Fumen owner to deliver his Ridewatch.

Todoroki, our closest clue about Hibiki, can be the person who deliver Hibiki Ridewatch, and give it to Kyosuke after he prove his worth as teacher. Just to make him get feel to be his idol. Rather than make Ridewatch appear magically and break Oni system and lore.

Here in Kabuto episode, it can easily fixed just by replacing Kagami dialogue when accept Kabuto Zecter. Kabuto and Gattack Zecter only obeying their original user, so the only reason Kabuto Zecter come was because Tendou order it to help Kagami. Tendou can actually communicate with them, he can negotiate with his Zecter, proof for them to have their own intellegence and do something their user told them to. Kagami can said something like he be grateful for his all-knowing friend still watch over him, rather than thinking Kabuto Zecter choose and acknowledge him because he know how their Zecter was bit different than other due they already assigned to Tendou and Kagami rather than choose and select their master.
 
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Well, that was an easy fix, like I said, there were multiple ways they could have gone around it. The reason I didn't suggest side characters giving them Ridewatches was because it feels very lackluster. Like, they bothered enough to have Fourze show up for a bit, to de-transform into a fill-in for Gentarou, yet couldn't be bothered to do the same for the other characters.

I understand the need to like, try other creative ideas, I think it's a nice thing to do (having side characters showing up all the time to hand out Ridewatches in place of the main character can get repetitive and boring), but like, you gotta decide which ones best compliment the story of Zi-O, and doesn't break the lore of the previous shows. In Hibiki's case, it would just seem like someone else becoming Hibiki outside of anyone we know of should have been the best option. I mean, it's also a metaphorical admission from the writer right, that "sorry, we fucked up Hibiki and pretended to be him".

Like, the way I see it, I had a big problem with how Kiriya was sitting there and Sougo tells him "it doesn't matter if you weren't the real Hibiki, to Tsutomu, you were." because to me, that sounds like the writer was kind of saying "it doesn't matter that the second half of Hibiki sucked and wasn't really Hibiki anymore, because to plenty of other kids who had no idea about writing in general or the problems the staff had, it was a great show and it is still Hibiki!" It's like, I just saw Kiriya as a big projection from whoever was writing the episode, completely drowned in their subjective experience and validating that by finally having Kiriya become Hibiki, despite the fact that if he ever takes up the mantle, it means Hibiki failed as a mentor.

Like man, talk about cutting the development AND validating the fact that Kiriya being Hibiki means they didn't understand the philosophy behind the first half of Hibiki at all, because becoming Hibiki meant embodying the philosophy as well.

But, outside of the Hibiki stuff though, I really felt like they did Yaguruma dirty this episode. He's just going to be constantly stuck in "I'm in Hell" phase for like however long that remains an iconic thing.
 
K

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"it doesn't matter that the second half of Hibiki sucked and wasn't really Hibiki anymore, because to plenty of other kids who had no idea about writing in general or the problems the staff had, it was a great show and it is still Hibiki!"
Sounds exactly like something that Shirakura would try to do to defend all the **** he's done to the show.
 
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Hey everyone! Sorry for posting episode discussions and my replies so late. An out of town family member has been visiting, and my family and I have been using all our free time to be with her. So if updates here are slow, blame me. It's hard to juggle both, and since family matters more than some random TV show from Japan, well I hope you can understand where my priorities would be.

Anyways, there is so much to unpack here…

So I guess it’s canon now. Kabuto is from a different dimension/timeline. Fans have speculated this before, but I guess it’s canon now. And somehow, Kabuto’s timeline is intersecting with the main timeline. This really puts a new spin on the nature of crossovers… Either way, I guess this is why Zi-O’s way of collecting Ride Watches has changed, because multiple timelines are merging upon him and he’s not just traveling through one timeline anymore.

Still, I loved this episode. This was a way better payoff than the Hibiki arc! If you saw Kabuto episode 1, then you know this was a nice way to handle the arc without Kabuto’s original actor. It started with Kagami trying to become Kabuto himself, and it ended with him finally getting his chance. All things full circle, and he did it by finally believing in himself. There can be only one Kagami and there can be only one Tendou; but in the right circumstances, either of them can be the one and only Kabuto. And if definitely works better since Kagami was always there from the beginning, unlike some unnecessary third-wheel character that was tacked on at the end and didn't actually get a fully-flushed-out character arc. I know some people might disagree with me, but I thin presentation matters. This two-parter didn't bash you over the head with Kagami's feelings of inequality, it didn't focus on Kagami constantly trying to be Kabuto and failing. It just takes elements that all ready existed from the Kabuto TV show and made the most of them as best they could. And I believe it works.

And last of all… I don’t know where they are going with Tsukuyomi’s story, but I like it so far. Clearly her fate and her Time Jacker powers are intertwined with Sougo’s destiny. What we may end up seeing is a character arc way better that Natsumi’s (the girl who traveled with Decade). But for now, we’re about to usher in the golden armor of a king…
 
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I forgot about it. Kagami remember about what happened original series, but look like he was doubting his own memories. What happened with Shibuya Meteor? He questioned this event but somehow easily shrugged it off like it is only happened his imagination. Maybe this is connected with distorted timeline where Tsukuyomi past reside. This is feel weird, like they want to build a plot twist but feel afraid to share any hint for it.

What makes me disappointed with Kabuto tribute is not because Kagami get Kabuto Zecter. He is one of my favorite character in Kabuto. He is by all means worthy to handle it, but the way his dialogue is, like he was inherited something better than Gattack Zecter. Well they didn't directly put Kagami's envy as story but it is still there. Kagami remembering about his first encounter with Kabuto Zecter and his defeat against Kabuto. It is like put all fault to Gattack Zecter, even though what is really determine Rider strength most in Kabuto was their Zecter user. Kabuto Zecter didn't reject Kagami, it is just flying straight to Tendou. Because Kagami already destined to Gattack, just like Tendou to Kabuto. The Zecter can be used by another person due to same belt system, usually because they feel better resonance with that person, but those beetle Zecter was never choosing anyone. Why now Kagami felt disappointed for not get choosen by Kabuto, he already have Gattack and it is only Zecter who rivaled Kabuto power if not because Tendou have unlimited plot armor.
 
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I don't know, I don't think the episodes worked in the overall sense. It worked in the sense that, yes, they were able to wear the Kabuto skin and recapture some of the feeling of Kabuto, but the essence of Kabuto is not there. Like, none of these shots remind me of the way Kabuto was shot either, which is something they would bother to do for Den-O in later episodes.

I could bring up more points about why this didn't work overall, but I'll be opening up a can (more like meteorite) of Worms that can honestly be dismissed as purely subjective observations, meaning that if you didn't catch all of that in your viewing of Kabuto (which I watched at least 4 times over), then you can dismiss it all as my opinion. My goal isn't to convince someone to agree with me anyways. If you don't see it, you don't see it. I wouldn't want to ruin people's enjoyment of an episode, but I do think it's important to understand that you CAN like something that is objectively bad. I like Tendou as a character, and even I know he's objectively written in such a way that like doesn't make any real sense. If anything, I wouldn't say he has plot armor. More like extremely unrealistic levels of luck.
 
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I don't know, I don't think the episodes worked in the overall sense. It worked in the sense that, yes, they were able to wear the Kabuto skin and recapture some of the feeling of Kabuto, but the essence of Kabuto is not there. Like, none of these shots remind me of the way Kabuto was shot either, which is something they would bother to do for Den-O in later episodes.

I could bring up more points about why this didn't work overall, but I'll be opening up a can (more like meteorite) of Worms that can honestly be dismissed as purely subjective observations, meaning that if you didn't catch all of that in your viewing of Kabuto (which I watched at least 4 times over), then you can dismiss it all as my opinion. My goal isn't to convince someone to agree with me anyways. If you don't see it, you don't see it. I wouldn't want to ruin people's enjoyment of an episode, but I do think it's important to understand that you CAN like something that is objectively bad. I like Tendou as a character, and even I know he's objectively written in such a way that like doesn't make any real sense. If anything, I wouldn't say he has plot armor. More like extremely unrealistic levels of luck.

Well, I thought story can be more intense when they have few toy left to promoted. Maybe there is not enough plot twist reserved for Zi-O, because they think they will have full hand with 20 rider double episode arc. Lot of actor mean they spend more money for it. They can't even bother to use stunt actor to potray main character like they did to Fourze and Wizard. Agito is the last and the best we can get for the first ten heisei rider tribute episodes.

Tendou was mean to be unique character, always did everything perfectly minus heart to felt empathy to anyone outside his family, even though he declare he will do justice to something as small as amoeba.
But I think extremely unrealistic levels of luck is a plot armor, even though I still count his perfect calculation to dodge every attack with clock up speed from blind spot as his own skill. Something like how Perfect Zecter show up from nowhere is truly plot armor, still cool though.

Kagami was meant to be opposite of Tendou, careless, brute fighter with best arsenal before cast off. But still have heart so big to give mercy to Worm with perfect copy of child memories.
 
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