The Inconvenient Truth: Kamen Rider Build is the worst toku in history

Active Member
Joined
Jun 15, 2008
Messages
7,217
Why do I care about Europe? I'm talking about the belt gimmick itself with the coins. It's by far my favorite system. I don't give a damn who made it in universe. That has nothing to do with the story of the show.

In fact, if I recall, Foundation X made the coins.

X did not make the coins. They were just involved with Kougami in some fashion. And yes, the origins of the belt do bother me, since we still have a European belt speaking Japanese for no reason whatsoever. It's stupid on top of its irritating singing.

Den-O and Ryuki are not Neo-Heisei. I don't even know what you're talking about now. Are you comparing all the Heisei series or just the Neo-Heisei ones? I was solely talking about the Neo-Heisei shows. If I'm talking about the Heisei ones, then duh OOO is not better than Blade, Ryuki, and Agito. Kuuga and Kiva are debatable, but 555, Kabuto, Decade, Hibiki, and Den-O are a given. Though, if Hibiki had not fumbled during its second half, it may have been a top 10 show.

You do know that Yasuko Kobayashi wrote Ryuki, Den-O, OOO and Amazons, right? You're also aware of what Phase 1 and Phase 2 refer to, correct?

Kuuga through Hibiki at least (and I'd even include first half of Kabuto) are by and large better than Phase 2 as a whole. Better tone, better characterizations, tighter writing. I won't say better stories as Phase 2 does have good stories, they're just not written well many a time or are plagued by stupid characters doing stupid things to create mood whiplash.
 
D

Dr Kain

Guest
No, I have never heard anyone use Phase 1 and Phase 2 for riders before. They aren't the MCU. I've only heard Heisei and Neo-Heisei.

Also, I don't care which ones Kobayashi wrote as her writing is hit or miss, more often a miss. Outside of Toku, she's done the piss poor adaptations of Death Note, Claymore, and Attack on Titan.

I can't agree with you on Kuuga through Hibiki though. Kuuga has a shitty ass ending that ruins the show as a whole, though not as badly as 555's lack of an ending.
 
Active Member
Joined
Jun 15, 2008
Messages
7,217
See, no offense Kain, but this is kinda why it's sometimes hard to take you on your word on these topics, since you seem oblivious to things that are common knowledge in the fandom. :p

I was comparing all of Kobayashi's shows, as I stated in my post. Ryuki and Amazons are her best out of her Riders, Timeranger out of her Sentais. As for Kuuga, I think you need to watch it again.
 
D

Dr Kain

Guest
My bad. However, I did not realize she had anything to do with Amazons.

As for Kuuga, I do plan to watch it again when a competent fansubber subs it properly using the BDs.
 
Well-Known Member
Joined
Mar 20, 2012
Messages
3,803
They could have just recast Vernage. It wouldn't be the first time Toei did a **** you to a show by changing cast members halfway through. At least in this case she was nothing more than a voice. That is the easiest thing to recast. Homer Simpson she ain't.
Oh yeah, from a practical standpoint they already mentioned she was getting weaker so just throw some reverb on the voice of Misora's actress or something. But you never know what's going on with contracts and how that might affect things.
Wrong again.
You do know that Yasuko Kobayashi wrote Ryuki, Den-O, OOO and Amazons, right? You're also aware of what Phase 1 and Phase 2 refer to, correct?
C'mon dude. Phrases like this read like you're being condescending in order to bait him.

Opinions are like assholes: everyone's got one and they're all full of sh*t. No exceptions. Not me nor you or anyone else here. Just because someone disagrees doesn't make them "wrong". It means they see something different in it. We're all here because we like this stuff.

Besides, neither of you mentioned how awesome Den-O was! ;) (see above sentence about opinions).
In fact, if I recall, Foundation X made the coins.
They got shown briefly in Double with some Core Medals. Probably equal parts early cameo and Double's writer trying to foist the Foundation onto his successors, who completely ignored it. But it was because they were trying to 'obtain different powers for themselves', not that they made 'em. Same as how they didn't make the Gaia Memories they just funded and dealt with Museum, who did make them.

The backstory in OOO is that the medals were made by alchemists for a European king 800 years ago. That king was the first OOO, and was resurrected in the summer movie.

In the film 'Heisei Generations FINAL' they finally establish that Foundation X has since managed to replicate the process and create their own Core Medals. Which was handy because when Eiji turns up he doesn't have any of his medals with him for some reason, except for the halves of Ankh's broken Taka core.
No, I have never heard anyone use Phase 1 and Phase 2 for riders before. They aren't the MCU. I've only heard Heisei and Neo-Heisei.
So when Toei started work on Decade they disbanded the production crew that had worked on Kuuga through Kiva and created a new one. Obviously this doesn't include the important people like writers, producers and other fancy-pants "creatives". Just the ordinary shmo's operating cameras, rigging lights, serving lunch etc. The Japanese fandom started referring to the nine shows created by the first crew as "phase 1" and the shows with the new crew as "phase 2".

It appeared in the English-speaking fandom pretty quickly, most often being used by people who don't like the term "Neo Heisei".
I can't agree with you on Kuuga through Hibiki though. Kuuga has a shitty ass ending that ruins the show as a whole, though not as badly as 555's lack of an ending.
I have come to appreciate what they were doing with the Kuuga ending, but I totally understand the point of view of those who would have preferred a spectacular final battle instead of two dudes scuffling in snowfall so heavy you can barely see them.

The thing about Faiz having no ending always confused me though. I mean, I don't like that show (yes, Inoue, we get it, you only have four episodes' worth of ideas and you're just going to tell them over and over in every Rider show you work on and nobody's going to fire you because your dad basically co-created the original series) but I never felt like it was a cliffhanger ending.
 
D

Dr Kain

Guest
It wasn't necessarily the fight in the snow that was the issue, it was that we never actually saw Kuuga defeat Dezuba (or whatever his name was). It also didn't help that the last two episodes were so jarring compared to the rest of the series. I seriously thought I missed an episode or something between them. That also ruined my enjoyment for the finale.

As for 555, the last ten episodes were an utter mess to me. From the sudden convoluted introduction to a King Orphenoch to the random third party Orphenoch Hunter army that served no purpose at all, the show completely lost me in credibility. Add on top that the King Orphenoch and Lobster girl were left alive, we never got to see the showdown as the epsiode just abruptly cuts to Takumi and gang chilling on a hill just as he is about to perform a rider kick, it all left a bitter taste in my mouth. It was like I was eating a slice of pizza, nearing the end of it, and then I had one of those puke burps that ruined the taste.
 
Active Member
Joined
Jun 15, 2008
Messages
7,217
C'mon dude. Phrases like this read like you're being condescending in order to bait him.

"Reads" and "is" aren't always the same.

Opinions are like assholes: everyone's got one and they're all full of sh*t. No exceptions. Not me nor you or anyone else here. Just because someone disagrees doesn't make them "wrong".

To be perfectly honest, I hate this cliche. Everyone states their opinion as though it's an irrefutable statement. This "that's your opinion" sentiment I've come to notice stems from those who just don't like what the other says about something they like or dislike.
 
D

Dr Kain

Guest
I've gotta agree with Black Fang here. At least, I think I am understanding what he means. I don't see why everyone should always have to state it is their opinion. It should be pretty obvious when someone says something like, "<inserttitle> is the best <whatever>!" that it is their opinion. I'm tired of the over sensitivity that when you quote someone's post, they automatically assume you are attacking their opinion.

It's one of the reasons I made one of the rules of my own forums on my website be "2. Try not to take offense to anyone who does argue with you. They have the right to their opinion as well and are not attacking you."
 
K

Kamen Rider IXA

Guest
-Unnecessary duo riders that do nothing (Kabuto)
Agree with with this, but have to disagree on your every single other point.

-An ultra super serious tone clashing with cartoony humor (W and Gaim)
Subjectve. I personally found Build humour incredibly refreshing after literal years of godawful Den-O inspired "jokes". Build was hit and miss in humour department, but I did find one of the more funny seasons in the franchise.
I would also recommend you to rewatch Drive, if you want a definition of "bad tonal shifts".

-Lacking monsters of the week (Gaim)
Monsters of the week in "Phase 2" Kamen Rider have been good twice exactly. First instance was W and second was Fourze. Other than them, there is not a single "episodic-driven" season in the last 10 years which wouldn't drastically improve if you remove them. Not that formula itself is bad, modern Kamen Rider just used it incredibly poorly and some of the worse aspects of modern shows come because of how terribly they usually executed it. Especially ones like Drive and Ghost which relied on story a lot and came off with a lot of pointless padding because of just how much pointless filler they had. Plot-driven approach has its own issues (and Gaim, Ex-Aid and Build all have them), but it leagues above sitting through another variation of "here's your guest character, please care about him for the next two weeks, bye".
Also Build technically had a bit of motw, it's just the show bothered to actually tie-up them with the story this time.

-Tertiary riders that do very little after they become good (Ghost)
Can agree only partially, I'm not a big fan of how Build handled Rouge in general, but I wouldn't call it bad either, and what we ended up with wasn't terrible or anything. Just not nearly as good as it could have been. In case of Grease, character actually improved immensly after he changed sides.

-Doppleganger of the main hero becomes a red herring (Kabuto)
If you mean Dad Build, he had a place in the story and was important for Evolt eventual defeat. I think final strech of Build episodes is full of problems, but there is difference between being an underwhelming story element and a red herring.

-Constant drastic costume changes to the point where base form is never used (Ex-Aid)
And Kiva. And OOO. And Ghost. And Wizard. And Den-O. Riders have been doing this for ages. Toy-gimmicks aside (Build isn't really an offender here as well, it's more of an issue with the whole franchise), characters prefer to use stronger forms. That's development. I never understood why people have such a big problem with this approach. Hell, Build literally calls it "evolution", since characters raise their powers constantly.

-Trying to shove in unnecessary politics (Faiz and Gaim)
Both Gaim and Build had incredibly relevant politics. Build's issue that a lot of it came off underwhelming, but they were important. Show's literal premise tells you about country's separation into three factions. How are the politics unnecessary?

-Questionable camera work trying to hard to be artsy (Kuuga and Agito)
Name a season with better camerawork than either those two or Build than.
I hope you don't mean Koichi "look at my shaky cam and long explosions" Sakamoto.
I don't think any season looked more "alive" than Kuuga (even though CGI was so bad), but Build has a lot of decent shots.

-Random tonal shifts (Hibiki and Den-O)
I refer you to my first comment about Drive.

-Drastic focus on the main villain where everything else takes a back seat (Ex-Aid)
Partially agree. Overall focus on Evolt is an issue, but Build spends a lot of time on the main cast and there is not a single character from Sento group who doesn't get at least some development. Grease is a standout from me, since I didn't really like him all that much during his introduction arc, but he really shone through near the end. His final episode was leagues above actual finale.

-Little build up to anything (Faiz, Hibiki, and Den-O)
Build's problems lie in resolutions and payoffs, not builds up. First arc specifically takes a lot of time to properly cook Banjou as a Kamen Rider and we see his hero journey in details. I don't think there are many things in Build that felt like they came out of nowhere (Rouge's weird character shift is the only thing I can think of) Even most of stuff I dislike was properly set up at some point in one form or another, If anything, I often hear people complain that plot twists are predicatable.

-Base form somehow has a chance against the main villain when it should never (W and Ex-Aid)
Every single Rider debut since W had weird stuff like this. In Build's case they sort of gave an explanation, even though it wasn't a particulary convincing one. Then there is stuff like Hazard Levels and their role in the story and balance of power.
But again, I don't get why Build specifically is guilty of this.

-Useless female side character only there for humor (many entries, but W did this the worst)
I don't remember any useless female characters in Build at all (unless you count Vernage, but it was mostly because of production issues). Both Sawa and Misora were relevant to the story and had a lot of character dynamic with male cast members. Sawa perharps less so, I give you that, but if they were useless characters, than every single female character in Kamen Rider after Tackle ever was useless.

-Lackluster final battle (Hibiki and Decade)
True, but it's nothing new for the franchise. Only a few shows had actually satisfying finales. And compring final battle to Decade and Hibiki? Seriously? At least comare it to Wizard, OOO or Drive. Build's ending falls into "eh, that happened" category, but at least unlike Decade and Hibiki, it actually freaking happened, had big ideas and was unconventional in some ways.

-Forced drama that served nothing (Ryuki and Blade)
Most of drama in Build served a purpose. It did relativly better on that front comapred to Gaim (Micchy stuff aside) and 555 and much much better compared to Kabuto, Den-O, Kiva, Wizard, OOO, Ghost or Drive. Some of it was cliched and by the numbers, but show mostly managed to tie drama to character development.

-Putting in multiverse theory without much exploration into the idea (Decade)
They did give it an explanation which makes more sense than anything Rider multiverse offered so far.

-Atrocious music (Kabuto and Ghost)
So which shows do you consider to have good music? Ghost OST felt great and inspired after years of samey hi-tech pop music.
Build music wasn't as bad as Ex-Aid (with its two or three music themes constantly playing), but it wasn't all that memorable either. I personally found it okay.

-Slow pacing (half the heisei series)
That's downright untrue. Build has story stuff happening in almost every single episode. Accusing it of having a fast pacing I can understnad, but slow? It's probably the most story-driven show in the franchise, leaving behind even Gaim with Ex-Aid.

I personally think that OOO is the worst Kamen Rider series by far (unless you count The First/The Next movies), but I don't think even I can go as far with OOO as you went with Build.
That's your opinion and all, but you probably need to give it a bit more context if you want others to take it seriously.
 
Member of the Doomcock Army, w/o respect we reject
Joined
Oct 22, 2012
Messages
1,384
I would also recommend you to rewatch Drive, if you want a definition of "bad tonal shifts".
It has issues, it's not Build. Also I don't rewatch things.
there is not a single "episodic-driven" season in the last 10 years which wouldn't drastically improve if you remove them.
Yeah, no, monsters of the week are the best thing in television history and are needed in a franchise centered around them.
Especially ones like Drive and Ghost which relied on story a lot and came off with a lot of pointless padding because of just how much pointless filler they had.
Ghost barely had enough monsters of the week. Also both it and Drive were plot driven plenty.
Plot-driven approach has its own issues (and Gaim, Ex-Aid and Build all have them), but it leagues above sitting through another variation of "here's your guest character, please care about him for the next two weeks, bye".
And yet those turn out to be worse than most MotW series.
In case of Grease, character actually improved immensly after he changed sides.
He had character? He's exactly like everyone else in Build whose dialogue can be summed up as: "Attention everyone! My mouth is talking with dialogue! I will now use these letter to form words and sentences pointlessly to eat up time! Behold my group in this talk-o-rama!" And that is all there is to any of them, just blabbering.
he had a place in the story and was important for Evolt eventual defeat.
He's probably the most useless rider, you could cut him out and change nothing but episode count.
And Kiva. And OOO. And Ghost. And Wizard. And Den-O.
Incorrect, base form has a significant amount of screen time in those, in Build you wonder "wait didn't he have a base form on the poster?".
Hell, Build literally calls it "evolution", since characters raise their powers constantly.
And evolution is not always benefitial, I'm sure sabertooth tigers having their jaws penetrated by their own fangs would completely agree.
Both Gaim and Build had incredibly relevant politics
So relevant that cutting them out of the story would dramatically improve them.
How are the politics unnecessary?
It's just blabbering that amounts to nothing. It eats up screentime and nothing worthy comes out of it.
Name a season with better camerawork than either those two or Build than.
First series, V3, X, Amazon, Stronger, Skyrider, Super-1, Black, RX, Ryuki, Faiz, Blade, Hibiki, Kabuto, Den-O, Kiva, Decade, W, OOO, Fourze, Wizard, Gaim, Drive, Ghost, and Ex-Aid.
I hope you don't mean Koichi "look at my shaky cam and long explosions" Sakamoto.
I don't know who that is.
But again, I don't get why Build specifically is guilty of this.
Because it is the worst example of this. In fact it is the worst example of every bad thing this franchise has ever done.
Both Sawa and Misora were relevant to the story and had a lot of character dynamic with male cast members.
They were easy to write out, they hardly did anything most of the time.
but if they were useless characters, than every single female character in Kamen Rider after Tackle ever was useless.
I said "many entries" for a reason. Also why discount those from the original series, V3, and X?
And compring final battle to Decade and Hibiki? Seriously? At least comare it to Wizard, OOO or Drive
Those finales did not end on cliffhangers which makes them better by default.
Most of drama in Build served a purpose.
Having a reason to be there does not make something good or bad.
Some of it was cliched and by the numbers, but show mostly managed to tie drama to character development.
And it only damaged the franchise in the process.
So which shows do you consider to have good music?
The original series, Strong, Skyrider, Black, RX, Faiz, Kiva, OOO, Fourze, Wizard, and Drive.
Build has story stuff happening in almost every single episode. Accusing it of having a fast pacing I can understnad, but slow?
Every single minute and scene were a chore to get through, time itself felt stuck in the mud waiting for seconds to just move. It was slow pacing. Fast pacing means it isn't a chore to slog through.
you probably need to give it a bit more context if you want others to take it seriously.
I believed I gave plenty context.
 
Top