Redemptive reading of Kamen Rider Gaim: What if it was all intentional?

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In the show's case, Sagara granted Kouta, with bias (this is very important), power to overpower everyone and because of that Kouta managed to survive his test.

Because the situation created by Sagara favored the strong, the powerful and the ruthless of the world. In other words the Yggdrasils, the Micchys and Kaitos who were willing to kill anyone and do anything to get what they wanted. Giving more power to Kouta was his way of evening the playing field.

Un, no, do u even evolution dude?

You clearly don't. None of these conditions you list are anything close to describing evolution. Adaptation whether it be developing a physical characteristic or developing tools or technology is not evolution. Evolution in a nutshell requires the development of heritable characteristic (so changes in the reproductive cells) that can be passed on to the progeny. This is pretty much what happens with Kouta, Kaito, Mai and all the Overlords. The development of new heritable traits as a result of contact with Helheim pretty much made them evolve
 
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The Extraordinary Fan(boy)
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Um, spoilers I guess :

[HIDE]In the manga, it ends with Koutaro 99% failing his mission to destroy Golgom and the Creation King legacy due to a failsafe and an uncertain future due to time jumping mumbo-jumbos having to do with the Creation king's growing power and stuff. Koutaro never compromises and like his TV self he looses his family to save the Earth but at the end we are left with him standing on a sunk ship questioning his future and who he ultimately is : a hero that can prevent the world from being destroyed or the next Creation King due to him being a monster? And in general, the whole manga dwelves way too much in Koutaro's psyche and the eternal battle of the Showa-Kuuga theme of "Riders are monsters that the people choose to call heroes because of their sense of justice".


TL;DR Version : Koutaro has possibly been had(99% possibility) due to Golgom having hax failsafes and stuff, Kouta was a tool and a yes-man to the very end, betraying everything he stood for without much questioning.[/HIDE]


Well, now i really need to read to BLACK manga, but that further drives the point.

Basically Koutarou, in either of his incarnations, was a man who followed his convictions even when he did not succeded, while Kouta is man that at the end did saved the world but had to make a compromise.

This doesn´t diminishes Kouta as a character, but it does shifts away the story from being a heroic tale.

Again, it was a good tale, but not necesarily a Kamen Rider tale.

HurricaneDragon said:
Er. Your suggestion betrays his ideals a lot more than his actual decision did.

Wiping out the world to make a new one is the exact thing he did not want to do.

Actually it doesn´t, since the world of the overlords is essentially a doomed world already, they even said that the Femunshu(?) "lost to Helheim", so my suggestion (which is merely that, a suggestion) is merely that Kouta could have given that world a new chance at life while posibly stopping the Helheim cycle.

Guys, Helheim is not the villain. Whether or not you agree with that or how it was portrayed isn't really the point - factually, Helheim and Sagara are not "the bad guy" here, so any argument based on that logic is inherently flawed. You may not agree with how the show presented this fact, which is fine, misunderstandings happen, but it still is the fact of the show.

No one is arguing that, i couldn´t care less if Gaim doesn´t have a final boss, but the fact here is that Helheim is the central threat of the show that kicks everything in motion, so while Helheim and by default Sagara are not evil forces per se, their presence and how it threatens the world is something that must be dealt with, and how this is done is the crucible of the story: do you go the Iggdrassyl route and attempt damage control, do you let it consume the world like Kaito wanted or do you look for an alternate solution like Kouta?

How to deal with Helheim is the ultimate point of the story, and all i am arguing here is that Kouta´s decision, while arguably correct, did not come as particularly heroic: he did save the world, but there were sacrifices, and a big point of him as a character was the belief that a hope that requires sacrifices is not real hope.

I am not saying that it was a bad ending, but considering the themes and ideas the show had going on for most of its run, it could have done better, more heroic ending.
 
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Because the situation created by Sagara favored the strong, the powerful and the ruthless of the world. In other words the Yggdrasils, the Micchys and Kaitos and not the Koutas who were willing to kill anyone and do anything to get what they wanted. Giving more power to Kouta was his way of evening the playing field.

But see, "evolution" doesn't even the playing field, or else nothing would ever go extinct. Sometimes it turns out that way, but it never is by design. Nature is not fair and it is not benevolent to those with good intentions.

Guys, Helheim is not the villain. Whether or not you agree with that or how it was portrayed isn't really the point - factually, Helheim and Sagara are not "the bad guy" here, so any argument based on that logic is inherently flawed. You may not agree with how the show presented this fact, which is fine, misunderstandings happen, but it still is the fact of the show. (

The fact is: Helheim killed a lot of people, and it's definitely not a neutral force of nature that's simply just there. It's a sentient being that can communicate and that makes choices. Bottomline: Evil, by most human standards.
 
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^Then by your definition, humans can be considered evil because they kill animals and plants to survival too. Humans are to Sagara what micro-organisms or livestock are to us. Not I am saying he isn't evil, but the definition you use to categorize him is just basically flawed.

But see, "evolution" doesn't even the playing field, or else nothing would ever go extinct. Sometimes it turns out that way, but it never is by design. Nature is not fair and it is not benevolent to those with good intentions.

But Sagara is not "evolution" anymore than he is "fate", he is only a medium to promote these forces such as "evolution" or "fate". And he does what he sees can achieve results.
 
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while Kouta is man that at the end did saved the world but had to make a compromise.

This doesn´t diminishes Kouta as a character, but it does shifts away the story from being a heroic tale.

Again, it was a good tale, but not necesarily a Kamen Rider tale.
Not a single one of these things is true, especially considering how the definition of "Kamen Rider" has changed so much over the years anyway.

Where is this supposed compromise of Kouta's? Kaito? To call that his compromise is to disregard Kaito as a character and Kouta's understanding of him. To say that "well he couldn't do what he wanted without" is to ignore the fact that he couldn't do what he wanted until he got the Golden Fruit, which was a large part of the point of the show. To hold Kaito's death against him is just missing so many points of the show that it's ridiculous.

How is it not a heroic tale? Our hero goes through the story, grows as a character, and saves the world. He gives himself up to do it in the process. That's fairly straightforward.

As for Kamen Rider? As I already pointed out, the lone hero fighting against the all odds, protecting the world from his lonely road, no longer being human? That's arguably more Kamen Rider than a lot of the previous Heisei shows, and it fits Kouta to a T. To say he's not one is, again, another falsehood, as is to use his transformed state as evidence that he doesn't have a "mask." He still transforms into Kiwami, guys. That's to show that he's no longer human, if anything... Just like all the old Kamen Riders!

So rather than being the death of Kamen Rider, as some of you are suggesting, I believe this is still very much the birth of a Kamen Rider - but perhaps a new one, of the (newer?) modern era of Kamen Rider, in which, among other things, we have magical girls like Madoka contrasting the ones we're used to.

You clearly don't. None of these conditions you list are anything close to describing evolution. Adaptation whether it be developing a physical characteristic or developing tools or technology is not evolution. Evolution in a nutshell requires the development of heritable characteristic (so changes in the reproductive cells) that can be passed on to the progeny. This is pretty much what happens with Kouta, Kaito, Mai and all the Overlords. The development of new heritable traits as a result of contact with Helheim pretty much made them evolve
He gets it. :thumbs:

The fact is: Helheim killed a lot of people, and it's definitely not a neutral force of nature that's simply just there. It's a sentient being that can communicate and that makes choices. Bottomline: Evil, by most human standards.
Hurricanes also kill people. Causing death, when talking about nature, does not mean something is or isn't evil, and if Sagara is simply the forest's avatar, an analogy for, say, a hurricane, then that sort of thing doesn't apply on the scale we're discussing. Likewise, I already talked about this sort of thing, more or less, when I talked about evolution and adaptation on the previous page.
 
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But Sagara is not "evolution" anymore than he is "fate", he is only a medium to promote "evolution" or "fate". And he does what he sees fit.

Then he's promoting Kouta as the fated hero? If Kouta is the fated redeemer then that furthers even more the idea that Kouta was just basically going through the motions.

That's even worse.

^Then by your definition, humans can be considered evil because they kill animals and plants to survival too. Humans are to Sagara what bacteria or micro-organisms are to us. Not I am saying he isn't evil, but the definition you use to categorize him is just utterly flaw.

Invalid analogy. Plants and animals are not sentient and we have no means of communicating with them. Sagara pretty much has an understanding of the human psyche and yet has killed several.

Besides, some humans actually think that way: Think vegans.

Hurricanes also kill people. Causing death, when talking about nature, does not mean something is or isn't evil, and if Sagara is simply the forest's avatar, an analogy for, say, a hurricane, then that sort of thing doesn't apply on the scale we're discussing. Likewise, I already talked about this sort of thing, more or less, when I talked about evolution and adaptation on the previous page.

Hurricanes can't talk to you. They don't give biases for people they favor. They can't communicate to you to understand how you feel. They're not sentient.

Frankly, there is absolutely no way Sagara/Helheim is the analogy for nature. And if that was what the writer was thinking, "He didn't think it through" is such a vast understatement. Helheim being Golgom or Shocker makes much more sense.
 
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Besides, some humans actually think that way: Think vegans.
Technically, not to say I agree or disagree with their choice, but those people are going against what nature intended for us.

We are all animals. Our evolving to be able to think doesn't change that.

Hurricanes can't talk to you. They don't give biases for people they favor. They can't communicate to you to understand how you feel. They're not sentient.

Frankly, there is absolutely no way Sagara/Helheim is the analogy for nature. And if that was what the writer was thinking, "He didn't think it through" is such a vast understatement. Helheim being that Golgom or Shocker makes much more sense.
Sure they do. When a hurricane blows through the town over instead of your town, you've just been favored. Likewise, while Sagara, as the avatar, may have aided Kouta few times, when did Helheim, the actual forest, ever do anything that matched up with his supposed goals that you all describe in regards to the forest, with conquering and such? I can't think of anything - because Sagara's actions were simply the forest seeking out the best fit. Natural selection. As far as the forest, though, he never acted in a way that aligned himself with the forest - that's why it was a surprise. He was mysterious, yes, and had powers a normal person shouldn't, but "his" goals never screamed I WAS THE FOREST ALL ALONG - they might make sense in hindsight, because he was "helping" himself (the forest) find the next person most suited to control him (and that's something you guys are really glossing over much too much - Kouta is the one in charge here now), but that's still perfectly in line with what happens in nature; natural selection, Kouta adapting, and so on. Arguably, if Sagara is the forest, then Kouta was simply exposed to the "forest" more and was thus the most capable to adapting to it. Think about it less literally, and more as an analogy.

There absolutely is a way, and I've been explaining it for a few posts now.
 
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The Extraordinary Fan(boy)
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Not a single one of these things is true, especially considering how the definition of "Kamen Rider" has changed so much over the years anyway.

Kamen Rider has certainly evolved through out the years, but the basics are still there, even in shows like Fourze or Den-O that are very un-Kamen Rider, and notice that i love both of those shows.

While this is a pretty broad subject, i would say that one of the central ideas of Kamen Rider as a franchise is that Rider are heroes because they make the choice to do the right thing regardless of who or what they are, and this usually means fighting against an institution that wants to take that right away from people, similar to Helheim´s role in the story where it basically creates a scenario of either destruction or evolution.

Where is this supposed compromise of Kouta's?

The compromise is that at the end he did had to submit to the rules of Helheim, even though he did found a loophole and managed to save the earth. Kouta certainly tried to live by the ideals that Kamen Rider usually embodies, but his final decision fell a little in the "lesser of two evils" territory.

I am not saying that what he did was wrong, but considering the setup of the story and basic concepts of Kamen Rider, i think the show could have reached a better solution to the Helheim threat.
 
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Then he's promoting Kouta as the fated hero?

Again he didn't. He only gave Kouta a leg's up because like he said he saw Kouta as the underdog who was outmatched against more numerous, stronger (Yggdrasil) or more ruthless (Kouta, Micchy and Ryouma) opponents. Kouta could have easily lost to Kaito or died at Micchy's hands or Ryouma could have been more ambitious/power hungry and ate the fruit. Kouta winning is just a matter of circumstance as Kouta not winning.


Invalid analogy. Plants and animals are not sentient and we have no means of communicating with them.

Again these are concept and definitions created by people. And there is no universal definition of sentience. Trying to apply your own definition universally just shows how utterly flawed your entire argument is.
 
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Sure they do. When a hurricane blows through the town over instead of your town, you've just been favored. Likewise, while Sagara, as the avatar, may have aided Kouta few times, when did Helheim, the actual forest, ever do anything that matched up with his supposed goals that you all describe in regards to the forest, with conquering and such? I can't think of anything - because Sagara's actions were simply the forest seeking out the best fit. Natural selection. As far as the forest, though, he never acted in a way that aligned himself with the forest - that's why it was a surprise. He was mysterious, yes, and had powers a normal person shouldn't, but "his" goals never screamed I WAS THE FOREST ALL ALONG - they might make sense in hindsight, because he was "helping" himself (the forest) find the next person most suited to control him (and that's something you guys are really glossing over much too much - Kouta is the one in charge here now), but that's still perfectly in line with what happens in nature; natural selection, Kouta adapting, and so on. Arguably, if Sagara is the forest, then Kouta was simply exposed to the "forest" more and was thus the most capable to adapting to it. Think about it less literally, and more as an analogy.

A hurricane does NOT choose to pass over another town while skipping yours. The idea is preposterous. Sagara chose Kouta. Because he was "interesting": a personal opinion.

And no, it's not perfectly in line with what happens in nature. Kouta didn't adapt to nature, he was given gifts by a near omnipotent benefactor. That's the entire opposite of natural selection: That's divine providence. And when your god is evil...

Also, exposing yourself to nature more doesn't make you most capable to adapting to it. If you're not ready for it in the first place, you die. And Kouta started out not ready for it, and got given gifts to make himself ready for it. It's not like he actively chose to look for these gifts, either (an analogy for seeking the technology to overcome nature): It was Yggdrasil who did that. Kouta just received them.

Even non-literally, there is no analogy. Period.

Again he didn't. He only gave Kouta a leg's up because like he said he saw Kouta as the underdog who was outmatched against more numerous, stronger (Yggdrasil) or more ruthless (Kouta, Micchy and Ryouma) opponents. Kouta could have easily lost to Kaito or died at Micchy's hands or Ryouma could have been more ambitious/power hungry and ate the fruit. Kouta winning is just a matter of circumstance as Kouta not winning.

And that still doesn't matter. "He saw Kouta as an underdog" was still a personal opinion that influenced his decision. Thus it was a conscious choice to favor someone and thus, not be neutral. If a boxing tournament favors a lower seed because he's an underdog then that isn't neutral anymore.

Helheim is an entity with goals, the achievement of which involves killing off several humans. Usually that's enough for a villain, why not here?

Again these are concept and definitions created by people. And there is no universal definition of sentience. Trying to apply your own definition universally just shows how utterly flawed your entire argument is.

If we're going to these extremes on semantics, a lot of superhero show villains wouldn't be "evil". Helheim is evil because it actively threatens humanity despite being in a position to choose not to.
 
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