Kamen Rider Gaim Ep 45 - "The Final Battle of the Two Destined People!"

[lazycoconut]

You are taking him literally. Again it's not meant to be literal! You don't seem to grasp this!

In that the old system of values, ethics, norms and laws is replaced by the new system. Again it's not literal. You seem to not get that.

Kaito's aims involve mass destruction. Mai even showed him briefly a look at the future he wants, which is (surprise!) a desolate wasteland. That's not a metaphor.

The Inves were already coming through Zawame. It had nothing to do with the lockseed and belts. The kids were just a testing ground for the sengoku drivers that were going to be mass produced for the future. You clearly are either missing a lot of the details or flat out out distorting the details. But Ryouma had nothing to do withe Helheim coming to Earth, it was already happening. He was just there to find a solution to the problem by creating the lockseeds and sengoku drivers.

I am not "missing" or "distorting" anything. I'm saying that if we insist on holding the characters responsible for all consequences of their actions (foreseeable or otherwise), then Ryouma is indirectly responsible for everything the recipients of the Drivers/Lockseeds did with them.

He set a bomb. A bomb killing people is not unforeseen seeing how that is what most bombs do and of course Minato was there with Kaito. That was definitely a foreseeable event.

Zack's target was Kaito. He did not anticipate that Minato would throw herself in the way of the bomb. Even if he did want her dead, why is trying to kill two people worse than trying to kill six billion of them?

 

[Eldar]

Hold on a minute. You did say "Ryouma didn't unleash any Inves,"

I'm talking about the inves horde that came through in episode 32. That was not Ryouma's fault. That was Redue's and Micchy's fault at best.

 

[Eldar]

Kaito's aims involve mass destruction.

No his personal aim is to change the world. But mass destruction and probably mass deaths was undoubtedly a direct consequence of his aims.

then Ryouma is indirectly responsible for everything the recipients of the Drivers/Lockseeds did with them.

Why? He never intended to produce the drivers for anyone but Takatora. It was only Takatora's idea to test them on the kids and mass produce them for the 1 billion humans. Ryouma's ideas was evolution and building more powerful drivers. Is it the inventor's fault that their invention is misused or not used for their original purpose? It seems society would disagree with you.

Zack's target was Kaito. He did not anticipate that Minato would throw herself in the way of the bomb. Even if he did want her dead, why is trying to kill two people worse than trying to kill six billion of them?

Because he actually killed someone. You really can't weigh the possibilities against what actually happened.

 

[EXE]

You are taking him literally. Again it's not meant to be literal! You don't seem to grasp this!

In that the old system of values, ethics, norms and laws is replaced by the new system. Again it's not literal. You seem to not get that.

It's still destruction regardless though. Kaito seems pretty damn sure of himself every time he says he wants to destroy the world. To destroy the old system he'd have to destroy at the very least those in power such as political leaders. But the way he says it, it sounds like if an innocent person were to die because they were "too weak" to survive then it's their own fault. What Kaito needs to realize is that to he can make the changes he wants and doesn't have to sacrifice billions of innocent lives in the process. But again Kaito believes he doesn't owe anyone/ the world anything for him to save/protect it.

 

[lazycoconut]

No his personal aim is to change the world. But mass destruction and probably mass deaths was undoubtedly a direct consequence of his aims.

Definitely mass deaths, since he thinks humanity is corrupt, and plans to "fill the planet with a new life form"

Why? He never intended to produce the drivers for anyone but Takatora. It was only Takatora's idea to test them on the kids and mass produce them for the 1 billion humans. Ryouma's ideas was evolution and building more powerful drivers. Is it the inventor's fault that their invention is misused or not used for their original purpose? It seems society would disagree with you.

Society now, is it? :laugh:

Because he actually killed someone. You really can't weigh the possibilities against what actually happened.

You're saying that Zack is responsible for an unforeseen consequence of his actions. By that reasoning, Minato is responsible for the unforeseen consequences of hers. Since people died because of Ryouma's schemes, and she helped him, then that means she is also responsible for those deaths (whether she wanted to be or not.)

Who else do we know that's killed someone, and knows that killing Kaito is the only way to prevent global-scale death and destruction? Oh look, it's Kouta! Are you going to argue that the hero of the show is morally "worse" than a character indifferent to the deaths of billions for the sake of her own power fantasy?

 

[Eldar]

But that was not a unforeseen consequence though (you clearly haven't been reading my posts). She was right next to bomb. Even if she hadn't noticed it and it would have gone smoothly, she would have either been mortally wounded, killed or blown off the building.

Who else do we know that's killed someone, and knows that killing Kaito is the only way to prevent global-scale death and destruction?

Unless you have seen episode 47, you really can't say that Kaito is going to die or live for that matter. All Kouta has really resolved to do is defeat him. He hasn't resolved to kill him yet.

It's still destruction regardless though.

That is a consequence of power, which gaim has established as only the ability to destroy.

 

[lazycoconut]

But that was not a unforeseen consequence though (you clearly haven't been reading my posts). She was right next to bomb. Even if she hadn't noticed it and it would have gone smoothly, she would have either been mortally wounded, killed or blown off the building.

I have been reading your posts. You're the one saying "you can't talk about possibilities!" I am talking about what actually happened: Minato is the only person who died, because she threw herself in front of the bomb. Zack did not foresee this, as he was trying to kill Kaito. Kaito was also close to the bomb (and not in his Rider or Overlord form) but survived.

Unless you have seen episode 47, you really can't say that Kaito is going to die or live for that matter.

Kouta has killed one person (Yuuya), and he is now trying to kill Kaito. By your reasoning, this puts him on a level with Zack, who has killed one person (Minato) and tried to kill Kaito.

 

[HurricaneDragon]

It's still destruction regardless though. Kaito seems pretty damn sure of himself every time he says he wants to destroy the world. To destroy the old system he'd have to destroy at the very least those in power such as political leaders. But the way he says it, it sounds like if an innocent person were to die because they were "too weak" to survive then it's their own fault. What Kaito needs to realize is that to he can make the changes he wants and doesn't have to sacrifice billions of innocent lives in the process. But again Kaito believes he doesn't owe anyone/ the world anything for him to save/protect it.

I wonder. His last exchange with Zack really feels, to me, like there was a lot unsaid there, just implied. Even with what was said, though, it seems to me that Kaito has been expecting/waiting for Kouta to challenge him from the start, rather than expecting him to simply have the world without problem. Considering, even with his huge army, he's actually done significantly less with it than Micchy was going over ten episode in a similar position, I have to wonder just what's going on in his head.

Honestly, on paper, some of his ideals don't actually sound that bad. "A world where people don't/can't trample on the weak" is a lot better than some of the things going on in our world. If he was able to get them into the world as it exists now, rather than having to get rid it for a new one, I imagine this might be a very different story.

 

[EXE]

That is a consequence of power, which gaim has established as only the ability to destroy.

But the bottom line is that Kaito wants to end the current world by flooding it with Inves and renew it as he sees fit. You can't say that he wants to change the world without destroying it because he's said it like a bazillion times already that he doesn't care about the current world and wants to destroy it.

Honestly, on paper, some of his ideals don't actually sound that bad. "A world where people don't/can't trample on the weak" is a lot better than some of the things going on in our world. If he was able to get them into the world as it exists now, rather than having to get rid it for a new one, I imagine this might be a very different story.

I somewhat feel the same. Kaito's ideal world would be alright but the fact that he chooses to do it in a manner of killing off innocent people isn't right. It's odd considering Kaito wouldn't write off other characters when they showed weakness but rather challenge them to be stronger.

 

[KamenRiderBiblio]

Gaim falls off a cliff with his bike - Survives with no injuries.

Bravo falls off a building - Survives with minor injuries.

Takatora (out of suit) falls off a cliff - Survives with some bruises.

I don't count Ryoma, as he was already dying when he fell off the building.

Minato falls off a building in suit - Dies.

Yeah. I don't really get the logic here either. You are telling me that Zack's homemade bomb was more powerful than most of the Inves and Rider attacks? No, I just can't buy that.
And the blast was even so weak, that neither Kaito or Zack felt it.

Gaim: Wasn't very far of a fall

Bravo: Same as above (he fell from the second floor of a parking garage), plus he's got more physical strength and is a trained soldier. Minato only knows some martial arts.

Slaughtermelon: More or less rolled off the cliff and the dirt cushioned his fall, it wasn't a straight drop. Also he had magical fruit healers.

Minato: Took the brunt of a specially made explosive crafted by someone with actual knowledge of explosives, and was subsequently launched off of a building that was at least 10 stories tall. Explosions tend to de-suitify Riders, so she likely was out of suit halfway during her fall. Were this a seinen manga, she would be broken bones and gore.