Why do people say Gaim is good?

[Artisan]

It is a big spit in the face to its predecessors

I agree! It spits on the **** Rider shows of the past and says to them "this is how you do it".

1. The main rider is a wimp. Every episode he usually gets his rectum handed to him. It is as though he can barely fight for himself.

Oh yes, every episode. Except for all those occasions when he wins. Y'know, like the time he ironically saves Yggdrasil from the Invess with a watermelon in the sky. And when he takes down Sid (more than once, actually). When he manages to break through Takatora's battle composure a few times to lay hits on him. And when he slaughters a whole legion of Kurokage soldiers. And when he successfully subdues Minato. Not very important occasions, really.

The guy is barely out of his teens. He's never been brought up or trained to fight, and much of the time he's still trying to come to terms, process, and piece together what is going on around him. His enemies thus far all have solid reasons to be able to regularly rough him up, because they're either comprehensively trained physically, have OP hardware, or are simply otherworldly entities with otherworldly powers. Or in another instant, because someone has the audacity to shoot him in the back when he's unprotected.

2. Nobody in the cast is interesting. You could literally boil down all of their dialogue to "I have a mouth and I am talking cause I can" or "insert literary reference here

Only if you've not paid attention to anyone. Micchy is becoming more unhinged with every recent new episode. Team Ryoma is clearly conspiring more transparently with each episode (which culminates in episode 28, fyi). Kaito clearly trying to put money where his mouth is by putting his philosophy to the test against the Overlords, while maintaining a degree of respect for Kouta, not least because he has the potential to be strong.

The only character that has some remote interest is Kamen Rider Bravo, mainly because he isn't just talk, rather he *gasp* goes out and DOES JACK S**T!

In the grand scheme of things, aside from comedic value, what has Bravo managed to get done? I thought he was going to be slowly introduced into the grand scheme of things after the 25th episode, but the show decides otherwise, and he and Gridon continue to meander around, a bit lost, and essentially like Wizard's donut duo these days, albeit with their own belts.

I'm amazed the riders haven't just teamed up and stormed Yggdrasil by now, Gaim has that upgrade he got in ep 23 and took out most of their forces, how are they a problem at this poi- Oh yeah, my first point.

Why would they? The Armoured Riders all have their individual interests and motivations, along with shifting, questionable allegiances. There was never any common interest to usurp the city's corporate patron. You can probably just about get them together for a conference, but it will barely last five minutes, with people like Kaito.

3. The humor. "Oh our series is totally deep and dark like the ocean but lets have cartoony slapstick every other episode!" Is it so hard to ask for consistency?

Episode 25 so far has been the only actual incongruent episode in terms of tone nestled between the heavy overarching plot occurring around it. Otherwise, the comedy in Gaim has generally been fine, and they're well integrated into an actual episode without egregious intrusion and redundancy, and generally with a good degree of subtlety.

4. Side characters are beyond useless, they're basically point 2 except without rider forms.

I do agree to an extent. Mai is sadly underused, and this was perhaps an inevitability the moment the show decides to abandon the early dance team/Pokémon status quo setup.

5. They try too hard to make the villains sympathetic.

Takatora's not classed as a villain anymore, insofar as he ever was, because he's more like an antihero. He's been the ONLY ONE written to be sympathetic.

If you want magnificent bastards, you have Team Ryoma. Him, Minato and Sid. Three schemers who are only working together and with the company for the sake of expediency, and are individually driven by their own selfish desires to forage for the forbidden fruit and proclaim godhood as humanity dies around them.

As mentioned already, watch up to 28. If it wasn't clear from a long distance away, these guys don't **** around, and they're quite despicable as villains.

I don't watch toku for villains to be human, but even ignoring that, they go with the generic "we can only save so many people" and yet, somehow, they don't take smart moves like, I don't friggin know, CONTACTING THE MILITARY. Invade the dimension and burn it to a crisp, use some weapons, you have the friggin resources so why not use them? Inform the government to demolish Helheim, problem solved.

How big is Helhelm? How much ground is there to cover? Would attacking the forest make the crack situation worse? How much napalm would you need?

They EXPLAIN why they don't involve the military or any government. Because Helheim is solely Yggdrasil's playground. They have exclusive access to the forest for research, and Takatora clearly dictates that under no circumstances can the rest of the world know about any of this, at least presumably until the hour of the rapture approaches and the Driver distribution occurs in earnest a decade later.

EDIT: You start causing suspicion and panic, and humanity descends into chaos. That was Takatora's message to Kouta earlier, only Kouta decided to place greater (albeit a naive) faith in the ability of humanity to come together in times of disaster.

And when you have creatures and fauna that can convert you into a mindless beast with efficient ease, what good use can soldiers with conventional weaponry be in an alien environment that they'll have no proper understanding of?

Question: Do you watch toku for endless amounts of babble or for actual fighting?

Why do you even watch Rider? Much of the early-mid 2000s Heisei run has basically been dramas with a side helping of monster attacks and terse fight sequences that usually occur by the end of the episode, after twenty odd minutes beforehand of "babble".

I take it you must enjoy Wizard, given that the only thing that show has going for it are the flashy Utsunomiya fight sequences.

8. The civilians are morons. "These guys are trying to save us from monsters, lets hate them for no logical reason!"

It's amazing what calculated propaganda can do to an uninformed masses while a small outbreak of monster attacks and contagious disease is going around the city.

 

[Captain Shark]

The guy is barely out of his teens. He's never been brought up or trained to fight, and much of the time he's still trying to come to terms, process, and piece together what is going on around him.

That kind of makes him a really sucky hero if you think about it.

Micchy is becoming more unhinged with every recent new episode. Team Ryoma is clearly conspiring more transparently with each episode (which culminates in episode 28, fyi). Kaito clearly trying to put money where his mouth is by putting his philosophy to the test against the Overlords, while maintaining a degree of respect for Kouta, not least because he has the potential to be strong.

And this makes them interesting HOW?

what has Bravo managed to get done?

He went out and fought.

Episode 25 so far has been the only actual incongruent episode in terms of tone nestled between the heavy overarching plot occurring around it.

That Looney Toon motorcycle fall bit from episode 11 says hello. I'm pretty sure someone here used a gif of it in their avatar or sig a few months back.

How much ground is there to cover?

Given what we've seen so far? About 15 kilometers.

Would attacking the forest make the crack situation worse?

How?

How much napalm would you need?

How much covers 15 kilometers?

They EXPLAIN why they don't involve the military or any government. Because Helheim is solely Yggdrasil's playground.

Because they are morons.

can convert you into a mindless beast with efficient ease

That only happens when you EAT THEIR FRUIT. Tell soldiers "don't eat the f**king fruit", start a forest fire, and boom, problem solved.

Why do you even watch Rider?

Why do you if Gaim is the only entry that is "right"?

Much of the early-mid 2000s Heisei run has basically been dramas with a side helping of monster attacks and terse fight sequences that usually occur by the end of the episode, after twenty odd minutes beforehand of "babble".

Which only worked for Kuuga and Agito. That is until Kiva came along in its second half and went "you know what, kids don't want this, lets just be awesome" and accomplished it by shutting up and going all out. Decade, OOO, Fourze, and Wizard returned the franchise to its showa roots. You can't say that about W because of lack of exposition and really bad mood whiplash.

I take it you must enjoy Wizard, given that the only thing that show has going for it is the flashy Utsunomiya fight sequences.

Good heroes, good villains, good fights, good music, the side characters stayed the hell out of the way, babble did not overshadow important bits, it had monsters of the week, and it had a consistent tone, so yes I did enjoy Wizard.

It's amazing what calculated propaganda can do to an uninformed masses while a small outbreak of monster attacks and contagious disease is going around the city.

And same masses know these riders actually defend them and the internet does exist in this universe.

As mentioned already, watch up to 28.

I haven't seen 27 yet and I don't watch episodes until the TV-Nihon subs are out.

 

[Herman the German]

I'unno, I just find Gaim really engaging and fun to watch and it keeps me hooked for more all the time and I love the characters in the roles they are and… then again, I am someone who THOROUGHLY enjoyed Fourze and Wizard and Go-Busters so what do I know.

 

[Lockon]

Conclusion. It's good if you have an attention span greater than a toddler's. If not, well, we can't help you.

 

[Yoona]

Good heroes, good villains, good fights, good music, the side characters stayed the hell out of the way, babble did not overshadow important bits, it had monsters of the week, and it had a consistent tone, so yes I did enjoy Wizard.

It seems like this comes down to a matter of individual taste, because I personally hated Wizard. I thought both the heroes and the villains were extremely flat and boring, and the fact that most episodes were purely MOTW rather than connected to a larger plot left me uninterested and unable to work up any excitement for the series as a whole. For me Gaim's strength is its focus on the ever-shifting allegiances and motivations of its main cast, with the actual monsters themselves often functioning more as a backdrop or a vehicle on which to base the human drama. If you enjoy heroes who are heroes, villains who are villains and a MOTW-based framework for your Kamen Rider, it's inevitable Gaim's not going to be your thing.

 

[Captain Shark]

Actually my attention span is quite long, the material is simply very dry.

 

[Scissors]

1. The main rider is a wimp. Every episode he usually gets his rectum handed to him. It is as though he can barely fight for himself. This was excusable for the first few episodes or so, but all the way into ep 26 he still gets beaten waaaaaaaaay too much.

Kouta has shown a lot of growth during the show, both physically and mentally. He started out as a carefree guy who just wanted to have fun and earn some easy money.
Now he has gone on a 1-man mission to save humanity, and in the latest episode he even found himself a job, because he does not want to be financially dependent on his sister.

And I don't get what you mean by "barely fight for himself"?
He has done nothing than kick everyone’s ass after he got the Energy upgrades, which brought him to the same level as the villains.
It has been ages since any Rider actually beat him, and he even managed to beat an Overlord in episode 27.

2. Nobody in the cast is interesting. You could literally boil down all of their dialogue to "I have a mouth and I am talking cause I can" or "insert literary reference here because hey if it works for Star Trek 2 is can totally work for us!" Kind of a tangent but the whole inves invasion scenario does sound a lot like a "no win" scenario. The only character that has some remote interest is Kamen Rider Bravo, mainly because he isn't just talk, rather he *gasp* goes out and DOES JACK S**T!

There are a lot of interesting things about the characters.

Kaito witnessed as Yggdrasill literally tore down his childhood, which made him go on a quest for power, so that no one can ever take anything away from him again. He hates the weak, because like him, they let others dominate and control them.
Basically he is an enemy of the whole system.

Mai's story is the same as Kaito's, but instead of seeking raw power, she dances to keep the old memories alive, so that people will never forget the old town that used to be there.

Micchy you could write a whole book about. He is a teenage boy, who has been living a double life as long as he can remember, and because of the pressure from his family, he has been driven out in insanity, where he is willing to kill his own friends in order to be able to live in a dream world, where he is always a carefree teen.

Jonouchi is an insecure guy who has always been able to make friends by acting cool, but now everyone see him as a joke, which has made him realize that he has never been himself, and is still trying to figure out what he wanna do.

I'm amazed the riders haven't just teamed up and stormed Yggdrasil by now, Gaim has that upgrade he got in ep 23 and took out most of their forces, how are they a problem at this poi- Oh yeah, my first point.

Because taking out Yggdrasill would not solve anything.
Yggdrasill knows a lot more about Helheim than the kids do, and they have all the equipment needed to explore it.
Kouta's idea is not to destroy Yggdrasill, but make them realize that there are other ways to save humanity (which he finally manage to do in episode 27)
Besides, even if he tried, he would not be able to take on 4 Energy Riders + Ryugen who is also using Invess.

3. The humor. "Oh our series is totally deep and dark like the ocean but lets have cartoony slapstick every other episode!" Is it so hard to ask for consistency?

The humor is cartoony, but this is a thing that the kids like. Anime-style jokes are becoming more and more common in Japanese live-action shows.
Even some dramas have started using it.

4. Side characters are beyond useless, they're basically point 2 except without rider forms.

The Beat Riders are doing what they can to locate cracks, trying to tell the city about Yggdrasill etc.
Bandou has been the voice of reason many times, and has now gotten Kouta a job.

5. They try too hard to make the villains sympathetic. I don't watch toku for villains to be human, but even ignoring that, they go with the generic "we can only save so many people" and yet, somehow, they don't take smart moves like, I don't friggin know, CONTACTING THE MILITARY. Invade the dimension and burn it to a crisp, use some weapons, you have the friggin resources so why not use them? Inform the government to demolish Helheim, problem solved.

You do know that Helheim is supposed to be as big as Earth, if not even bigger, right? How are you gonna burn down something that is basically a whole planet without getting killed by the Overlords?
And normal weapons can't scratch them. It would require a couple of thousand Genesis Drivers, which is both difficult to make, and it would bring Ryouma in a difficult situation, as suddenly there would be a thousand soldiers walking around in Helheim with the knowledge of the Overlords, and with the risk of finding the forbidden fruit.
There is a reason why they even kept them a secret from Takatora.

7. And finally we have that which Gaim breaks Kamen Rider tradition more than anything else, that which cemented its inability to be comparable to the great entries of the franchise: The lack of monsters of the week. Every series had a substantial amount of MotW in them, even Ryuki:

The monsters are not the main focus in this show. The Riders are.
Why make a new monster suit for each episode if they are not going to play a big role in it anyway?

 

[Toku Prime]

The only thing i dislike is lack of a Mindfuckplot, since Urobuchi is the writer of Gaim i expected something like he did with Madoka (Enthropy and such). And i expected some good Rider War, its really boring whats going on between the Riders so far

I haven't seen Madoka yet (I'm following Vangelus' advice in the last HJU podcast to keep away from it in order to be able to see Gaim with fresh eyes and no expectations) but bear in mind that it was a show that aired after midnight, not in a Sunday morning kids slot. Nor did it have the commercial obligations. Based on Madoka's reputation, writing the exact same thing would risk losing the kids watching and that would turn the show into a commercial bomb that displeased Bandai. There's a line that needs to be walked.

Seen and enjoyed those, Death Note being in my top five anime.

Oh wow, now there's a show that was just endless talking trying to appear more clever than it was. Death Note bored the crap out of me lol. To each their own; it sounds like you enjoyed the kind of Rider shows we had the previous couple of years, and that's fine. Personally I think one of the Rider franchise's strengths is that it can drift from one kind of show to another and return back around years later if it wants to, and I enjoy the variety that brings (although I started with the more recent shows, so I never really developed a sense of "well Rider should be like this").

One thing I have to give Gaim credit for though - 30 weeks ago we were collectively howling with rage at the silly fruit ninja Rider that was going to bring the franchise crashing to it's knees, and yet we're all here discussing content and characters and so on and for the most part it never feels like the theme is still an elephant in the room lurking over us all. Frankly, just managing that has got to be a victory for the show most people were convinced would be a year of constantly jumping the shark.

 

[Murphy]

I'm so used to people complaining about the formulaic Monster-of-the-Week format of Kamen Rider and Sentai - often with good reason, such as in the case of Wizard - that I'm just kind of sitting here, mindboggled, that somebody flung themselves into the thread screaming "HOW VERY DARE THEY NOT SLAVISHLY ADHERE TO A FORMULA. HOW DARE THEY."

It's like putting a cat in a box and then opening the box a few hours later and finding the Spice Girls.

 

[AGear2Ax]

I'm so used to people complaining about the formulaic Monster-of-the-Week format of Kamen Rider and Sentai - often with good reason, such as in the case of Wizard - that I'm just kind of sitting here, mindboggled, that somebody flung themselves into the thread screaming "HOW VERY DARE THEY NOT SLAVISHLY ADHERE TO A FORMULA. HOW DARE THEY."

It's like putting a cat in a box and then opening the box a few hours later and finding the Spice Girls.

If you have been reading thousand of comments, you should notice that people are hard to please and everyone has their own opinions. The common problem is when people just expect that all others think and like the same things. Even worse is how when a show is liked by a lot of people, the few ones who whatever reason doesn't like it, start bashing it with purely subjective arguments as if those where a fact. Also, they forgot the global scale of the communities and cultural differences between people.

I think we should stop and close this thread. The OP hasn't said anything and IMO s/he mostly made this post to know how different s/he is from the people of the community, with no real intention to understand what makes Gaim so enjoyable for us.

Do you want to know why people like Gaim? Watch the show and see for yourself, and if you cann't watch the show, and/or you don't like how it develops, then it means you simply have different tastes (or you're outside the show's target group). Period.

P.S.: The argument about that the show "gets good after ep 11", isn't a strong one, because, why can it not be good right off the bat? And don't get me wrong, I enjoyed Gaim from the very beginning and I'm almost tempted to shout out: "BS! Gaim was great from the start!" but I remember that everyone has their own tastes.