Heroes are forever
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Throwing 2 cents here, whether this is something signficant to the argument or not.

Actually, comic book and manga are used interchangeably in Japan because they both mean one and the same.
Again, anime is the name for all works of animation, western and Japanese, in Japan. The word cartoon does not exist in Japan. In fact, if you say cartoon people are gonna think you're talking about

[...]

PS: Doctor Who, according to the Japanese wikipedia, is categorized as a tokusatsu.
This is in a way, the reason why something made outside of Japan would NOT be anime, manga, tokusatsu, etc.

When outside of Japan, works created in that country are referred to in terms they would be referred to there, in spite of the fact that works NOT created there would also be referred with the same term in that country.
It's all for practical purposes. When referring to something as ''anime'' or ''manga'' you are saying in short ''Cartoon/comic book made in Japan''.
It's as if I said ''Historieta'' when referring to a comic book created in Spain.

Because the rest of the world has (seemingly) applied this mindset for manga and anime, many would agree it should be done for tokusatsu too.

If I were to say this in brute terms, I'd say the entire world is either paying a massive homage to Japan or being weaboo.
 
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Even Gojira was inspired by King Kong, and there are strong rumors of unofficial King Kong films made in Japan that predated Gojira. So it's not technically the first tokusatsu.

They aren't just rumors, those unoffical Japanese King Kong films absolutely existed. There were two: 1933's Wasei Kingu Kongu (Japanese King Kong) and Edo ni Arawareta Kingu Kongu: Henge no maki (King Kong Appears in Edo) from 1938. However like 90% of all Japanese films predating the 1950s they are now lost, or destroyed, as a result of the 1923 kanto earthquake and WWII.

All that remains of them are a few production stills and magazine ads. Also we have the testimony of Tokusatsu technician Fuminori Ohashi who worked on King Kong Appears in Edo making the Kong suit. Ohashi was brillant at ape costumes. He designed the yeti suit used in Ishiro Honda's 1955 film Jūjin Yuki Otoko (Beast Man Snow Man) which unfortunatly is now locked away in the Toho Studio's vault as a result of it eliciting some rather Song of the South (1946) like controversy. Ohashi later went on to assit John Chambers with the ape makeup on 1968's Planet of the Apes.

So yes, there are Tokusatsu films that predate Godzilla. The oldest extant Tokusatsu film we have is probably 1921's Jiraiya the Brave which is quite a find as it features a pair of dueling ninjas with the power to transform into a giant snake and toad. So it's simultaneously the earliest example of both Kaiju Eiga and the Henshin Hero concept in a Tokusatsu.

But because the Japanese film industry basically had to reboot itself after the War everyone always points to Honda's Godzilla as the default first example of Tokusatsu, so I'm following suit. Also the main inspirartion for Godzilla was actually Eugène Lourié's 1953 film The Beast From 20,000 Fathoms with stop-motion SFX by the late Ray Harryhausen. What's funny is that while Beast was certainly a success back in its day it was nothing compared to Godzilla. Godzilla was so successful that several years later Lourié actually ended up copying it when he made Gorgo in 1961, Gorgo being one of those prime examples of a faux-Tokusatsu we've been talking about.
 
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Twitter - @MisturYellow
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Yeah..I only put it as rumor status because there are some who still don't believe they existed.

I always thought he was inspired by King Kong because they planned to make Godzilla using the same stop motion, but found out it was expensive. Hence where suitimation came from.

Didn't know about Jiraya the Brave though, that's interesting.
 
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Yeah..I only put it as rumor status because there are some who still don't believe they existed.

I always thought he was inspired by King Kong because they planned to make Godzilla using the same stop motion, but found out it was expensive. Hence where suitimation came from.

Didn't know about Jiraya the Brave though, that's interesting.

Eiji Tsuburaya, the "God of Tokusatsu", was the one who did the SFX for Godzilla and like so many others he was inspired by King Kong, often saying it was the reason he went into film.

He did want to do stop-motion for Godzilla but had neither the time or money (which in the film industry is the same thing), so he turned to suitimation and miniature SFX which he honed into the art we now call Tokusatsu. It's a great example of the old adage that all true art is born out of constraint.

Oh and definitely look up Jiraya the Brave. You can find it on YouTube with English subtitles! It's based on an old Japanese folktale and in 1966 Toei actually made their own version of it called The Magic Serpent. It was dubbed by AIP and run on TV back in the day. There's also a faux-Tokusatsu version of it from Taiwan called Young Flying Hero that was dubbed by Damon Foster.
 
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I just...don't see the offense to be taken when other people want to use the term in the way that the Japanese do.

"Offense" is too strong a word. I think it's foolish, but other people do a lot of things I think are foolish (and I know I do some things other people would think to be foolish). Generally I'll abide by a "live and let live" policy until, as in this thread, someone decides to ask me point blank about my opinion.

Now, as for why I think it's foolish, it boils down to two things.

1) We aren't speaking Japanese. Because of that, there is absolutely nothing gained from taking a Japanese loanword and trying to preserve its original meaning. In fact, it makes usage of the word in English more confusing when you attempt to use it broadly, as per its original meaning. In modern English, generally words from other languages are used to indicate things from other cultures. We call Mexican tripe stew "menudo" to indicate its origin. The same goes for the dumplings called "runza" imported to the Midwest from German cuisine, and most American noodle dishes based on Italian types of pasta (spaghetti). This is largely the rationale behind calling Japanese cartoons "anime" and Japanese comics "manga," and attempts to change those definitions post hoc were met with stiff resistance. Deciding that tokusatsu is going to work differently doesn't make sense, unless you ascribe some special emotional value to use of the word. That is, it makes no sense to call not-Japanese things tokusatsu, unless doing so just happens to make you feel good. For purposes of communication, it's pretty obviously not the best choice to make, because English has more common terms available to describe the exact same things.

2) That's not how loan words work. Precious few Japanese words that have come into broad usage in English have anything like their original meaning. Generally, the ones that do refer to very specific things that in English would be nouns, things like tsunami or sushi. But tycoon in English is a million miles away from the original meaning of taikun, and the same is true of words like honcho and other older Japanese imports. At the end of the day, words are tools used for communicating ideas. Their value is tied to their usefulness for describing the world and the things we encounter in it. Old words fall out of use in English and "die" all the time, usually because the things they described stopped being relevant. Likewise, you have words whose meanings change and mutate. Loanwords picking up meanings different than their original meanings is just part of that natural process, and I see no point in fighting it. If we do, we're stuck saying that the only legit meaning of "hamburger" is "someone from Hamburg," and I honestly don't think anyone here would seriously advocate that.

Other than coming off as though you are talking down to fans about what choices they make in what they call things, would you go out of your way to tell some one that what they call toku isn't?

It would depend on how well I knew that person. For someone I knew really well, I would have a "Uh, what? Why are you doing that?" reaction, because I would be very confused and want clarification.

For a more casual acquaintance, or typically on a public forum like this, I would smile and nod and probably go with the flow. Chances are the topic of conversation is something else entirely that I'm more interested in, so I'll focus on that instead. And while someone might use tokusatsu in a way I don't agree with, if I can figure out what they're trying to say at all, I'll continue the conversation based on that.

Generally I'll only bring up my feelings about what the word means and how it should be used in a thread like this, which is... about how the word should be used. Otherwise, I think bringing semantics into casual conversation about other topics is pretty boorish and should be avoided. Most people don't find it enjoyable and just want to talk about the thing they want to talk about.
 
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"Offense" is too strong a word. I think it's foolish, but other people do a lot of things I think are foolish (and I know I do some things other people would think to be foolish). Generally I'll abide by a "live and let live" policy until, as in this thread, someone decides to ask me point blank about my opinion....

It would depend on how well I knew that person. For someone I knew really well, I would have a "Uh, what? Why are you doing that?" reaction, because I would be very confused and want clarification.

For a more casual acquaintance, or typically on a public forum like this, I would smile and nod and probably go with the flow. Chances are the topic of conversation is something else entirely that I'm more interested in, so I'll focus on that instead. And while someone might use tokusatsu in a way I don't agree with, if I can figure out what they're trying to say at all, I'll continue the conversation based on that.

Generally I'll only bring up my feelings about what the word means and how it should be used in a thread like this, which is... about how the word should be used. Otherwise, I think bringing semantics into casual conversation about other topics is pretty boorish and should be avoided. Most people don't find it enjoyable and just want to talk about the thing they want to talk about.

Agreed. It doesn't "offend" me as much as "annoy," because I find it incorrect and confusing.

If I was at a convention and overheard someone I didn't know saying "Captain Power is the best Tokusatsu" I would just bite my tongue, shake my head and move on. If they were talking to me directly then I would probably try and correct them. If they were a friend.... well if they were a friend they wouldn't be doing that ;)

Actually it just occurred to me that there is an absolutely perfect meme for this. From now on anytime I see someone using the term Tokusatsu to refer to a non-Japanese live-action SFX show or film I think I'm just going to post this....

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G2y8Sx4B2Sk"]You keep using that word. - YouTube[/ame]
 
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And if you were in Japan and a Japanese fan were to say they loved that US made toku captain power, would you try to correct them as well?

No of course not for the same reasons Lynxara laid out about language.

Though I'd be interested in having a conversation to find out exactly what their understanding of the term was and if it lined up with Katsuno, Anno, Haraguchi and other's definition of the term. That there is tokusatsu is the broad sense of the term meaning "SFX" and then there is Tokusatsu in the narrow sense meaning Japanese made SFX productions.
 
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I guess it just comes down to this... Those of us that want to call TMNT or captain power toku can, and those of you that don't agree can go on telling us how wrong we are.
 
the baddest *****
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There's so much double talking and contradiction, I don't even know why this thread has lasted so long.

You say those are wrong when they point out that the Japanese use the term as a blanket for anything containing sci-fi... but then quote Japanese directors and their Japanese written essays for a Japanese audience.

You apply that to your definition of tokusatsu, only saying that only the Japanese can use tokusatsu as a blanket term but English speaking fans must make the distinction between Western 'tokusatsu' and Japanese 'tokusatsu'?

You simply can't make up your own rules and try to apply it as fact. It's not. If you want to make the distinction because it makes whatever your watching mores special, then fine. Go ahead and do that if it makes you feel better. But for those who don't really give any shits about what's considered tokusatsu and what's not considered tokusatsu, you shouldn't go out your way to talk down and say that they're wrong.

There ain't no wrong answer here unless. Toku is special effects, nothing more nothing less. Doesn't matter if the **** was produced in Japan or fucking Timbaktu. The country doesn't determine if the **** is toku, the style and art direction does... and considering how broad the definition is for toku (20th Century Boys to Super Sentai) the argument becomes nothing more than a non-factor.

At the end of the day, its special effects science fiction. Japanese special effects and science fiction. Toku wasn't invented in Japan and the Japanese can't claim it as their own. Only thing they've done is just kept up with the cheese effects and polished it up a bit.
 
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You keep accusing us of talking down to you Ladymercury, which I don't think anyone is doing, you you've been bitter, cynical and borderline insulting since you first joined this thread.

There's so much double talking and contradiction, I don't even know why this thread has lasted so long.

You say those are wrong when they point out that the Japanese use the term as a blanket for anything containing sci-fi... but then quote Japanese directors and their Japanese written essays for a Japanese audience.

You apply that to your definition of tokusatsu, only saying that only the Japanese can use tokusatsu as a blanket term but English speaking fans must make the distinction between Western 'tokusatsu' and Japanese 'tokusatsu'?

You simply can't make up your own rules and try to apply it as fact. It's not. If you want to make the distinction because it makes whatever your watching mores special, then fine. Go ahead and do that if it makes you feel better. But for those who don't really give any shits about what's considered tokusatsu and what's not considered tokusatsu, you shouldn't go out your way to talk down and say that they're wrong.

None of that is correct. No one has said that you are wrong for pointing out that in Japan tokusatsu is used as a blanket term for any and all SFX heavy production. Everyone here agrees and acknowledges that fact. However as Lynxara's pointed out how the term is used in Japan by the Japanese isn't the end all be all of this discussion. We are talking about how the term should be used in English and as a Japanese loan word - like anime, manga, samurai, etc... - it should be used in a way that denotes it's Japanese context. You do this by limiting your usage of the term to those SFX productions originating from Japan and by not applying it to those that do not; like Captain Power or Doctor Who or what have you.

In addition my point since the beginning is that if you read essays on and interviews with Japanese tokusatsu artists and filmmakers they do make a distinction between tokusatsu as a blanket term for SFX and Tokusatsu as a unique form of SFX indigenous to Japanese cinema. I have cited quotes about this from Hideaki Anno (Neon Genesis Evangelion, Cutey Honey), Shinji Higuchi (Gamera), Yuichi Kikuchi (Godzilla, Ultraman), Tomoo Haraguchi (Ultraseven X, Sakuya, Death Kappa), Koichi Kawakita (Godzilla, Gunhead, the Chouseishin Series) and even the medium's creator Eiji Tsuburaya himself, all of which you have essentially ignored in favor of just blindly pontificating about how we're wrong and you're right. But you haven't given us one reason to think you're right at all.

There ain't no wrong answer here unless. Toku is special effects, nothing more nothing less. Doesn't matter if the **** was produced in Japan or fucking Timbaktu. The country doesn't determine if the **** is toku, the style and art direction does... and considering how broad the definition is for toku (20th Century Boys to Super Sentai) the argument becomes nothing more than a non-factor.

It's not just about the country of origin and it's not just about the style and art direction either. It's both of those things, but most importantly it's about the underlining aesthetic philosophy at work behind the entire enterprise. The Japanese have cultivated and continue to employ a certain style SFX because their is a unique artistic ideology at work behind it. What Donald Ritchie refers to as "Representational" and "Presentational" aesthetics. American filmmakers have largely been preoccupied with the "Representational" trying to recreate reality on the silver screen. The Japanese on the other hand are more interested in the "Presentational" is which a stylized idea of a particular version of reality is shown. It's for this reason that Hollywood SFX have continued to change drastically over the decades with regards to the techniques they use because they are always looking for something more "real." But the Japanese have been content with men in monster costumes ever since Harou Nakajima slipped into the very first Godzilla suit because "realism" isn't a prerogative of Japanese art. So a man in a dinosaur suit is just fine because everyone watching the screen understands that is this version of reality this is what a 50-meter-tall radioactive behemoth looks like.

Toku wasn't invented in Japan and the Japanese can't claim it as their own. Only thing they've done is just kept up with the cheese effects and polished it up a bit.

You'll have to take that first claim up with the Japanese who seem to feel different.

As for your second claim, the fact that you would call Tokusatsu "cheese" just shows that you really don't understand it and really are still stuck in a culturally biased western mindset when it comes to Japanese art.

“For some in the West, these films will always look ‘fakey,’ but of course, that’s a culturally based objection. It was rarely the intention of the producers of any Japanese fantasy film, from the high art movies like Kwaidan down to the lowest of the low-brow, such as Invasion of the Neptune Men, to be ‘realistic’ at all. It is simply not a consideration in any form of Japanese art, so directing that complaint at these movies is irrelevant.†- Bill Warren, KEEP WATCHING THE SKIES 21st Century Ed. (2009)
 
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