KR X SS: Superhero Taisen Movie - Talk Up! [THREAD TITLE FIXED TO BE MORE CLEAR]

[NeonZ]

That said, I'm not sure writing it off as a flop makes any sense? It didn't get canceled like Nexus, in fact Moebius headlined several movies and got something like three sequel/spinoff DTV series. Tsuburaya wouldn't make all that if someone wasn't buying it.

I'm not writting it off as a flop, I just don't think that there are signs that it was a big success worth ripping off either.

Don't forget that Decade itself also started some months after Ganbaride, Bandai's big Rider crossover game was launched. It's not unbelievable for even Bandai itself to be pushing for some kind of crossover series to tie in with their product.

It's known that Toei wanted to do a short series to shift Rider's start time relative to Sentai, so shows would no longer begin and end in lockstep. Decade just happened to be that show. Maybe Toei was more willing to do something crazy with a shorter show and try out the crossover gimmick, or maybe Decade was going to be a big crossover regardless of what its episode count was going to be. We really have no way of knowing. That said, I doubt Toei would've done any sort of crossover revival if Tsuburaya hadn't gotten one on the air first.

Do you remember that old interview with W's producer? Didn't it basically confirm that W actually start production on some level before Decade? When Toei created Decade as a series, it was exactly to fill in that less than a year spot, it didn't "just happen" to be the show that aired when Toei decided to do it.

All the other gimmicks are just there to pad the films and, occasionally, provide extra fanservice. You're mainly pointing out the more fan-oriented fanservice in the various movies, where you have to know more about the characters/franchise to appreciate it.

I don't think that's necessarily the case though. Yes, I mixed mainstream and fan-only features there, but every movie still has at least one big mainstream hook, in addition to the ones more focused on fans.

Decade becoming evil and W's debut might appeal only to fans, true, but bringing back Shocker and using them to headline All Riders vs Dai-Shocker's promotional campaign was something that even the Japanese mainstream would take notice, considering how Shocker still seems to be remembered in general (like how evil organization parodies often seen to be generic Shocker knock-offs) - now, I don't disagree that it'd have been less effective without the "All Riders" idea, but I'm not denying that he uses the crossover gimmick, I'm just saying that it's not the only gimmick in these movies.

The same goes to the whole "Decade's finale" bit both here and in Movie Wars 2010. Even if it'd only matter to viewers of the show, we're still talking about millions. For Let's Go Kamen Riders, yet again, everyone would instantly get the appeal of "Rider 1 and 2 are evil? Shocker conquered the world?". And, yet again, in Super Hero Taisen, "Rider and Sentai destroying each other?".

I think that if the focus were just on the large group scenes like you claim, these movies wouldn't be very different from a 199 Heroes, only with less actor cameos, which, like you've said, felt just like a standard Sentai Vs movie in spite of the large group scenes, nor would they all so far center on variations of the whole "The Main hero is evil?!" idea. There's obvious more to them than just many suits appearing together. I agree that he's focusing on gimmicks, but I don't think the only relevant gimmicks are the group scenes.

I think Tsukada's approach could have some enduring appeal, since it's really about emphasizing certain timeless aspects of the genre. I don't see Shirakura's approach working once Japanese audiences cease to be dazzled by fights where hundreds of guys are battling at once, and I feel it's inevitable that's going to happen. Eventually any audience is going to get bored with a gimmick like that.

Shirakura's approach might get tiring, but for another reason. Almost every single one of Shirakura's extra gimmicks for the promotion of these movies seem to involve heroes turning evil. They're different takes on the concept, but all seem to come down to that. If he really can't think about anything else, audiences certainly will get tired of that alongside the group scenes. However, I think that if he can still introduce further "hooks" in later movies that even people who aren't exactly "fans" of the franchise can get, they'll continue to perform well.

 

[Lynxara]

So I think you make a reasonably persuasive case about Shirakura's stupidity and incompetence with regard to his crossover films, but there's a couple things where I think you're basically mistaken.

Don't forget that Decade itself also started some months after Ganbaride, Bandai's big Rider crossover game was launched. It's not unbelievable for even Bandai itself to be pushing for some kind of crossover series to tie in with their product.

Ganbaride launches in 2008. Moebius was a 2006-2007 series. Incidentally, Ganbaride is predated by a similar Ultraman-themed arcade/CCG fusion published by Bandai, called Mega Monster Battle: Ultra Monsters. I believe Ultra Monsters is published alongside the 2007-2008 Ultra Galaxy series. Bandai also, I believe, did the toy marketing for Moebius, Ultra Galaxy, and other recent Ultra productions (call me on it I'm wrong, toy collectors). Even if the idea totally originates with Bandai, they still tried it out with Ultraman before moving on to pushing it for Toei's properties. And to some extent they're still pushing it with Ultraman, since the franchise hasn't really been out of crossover mode since Moebius (perhaps to its detriment).

Do you remember that old interview with W's producer? Didn't it basically confirm that W actually start production on some level before Decade?

No, you're misremembering a bit. W and Decade entered production at the same time. Since it was known that Decade would be a short series, its successor had to be developed at the same time if it was going to have episodes ready to air the week after Decade finished. That's also why W's production staff is largely people who didn't work on Rider before. All of Rider's usual suspects at the time were participating in Decade.

 

[NeonZ]

Ganbaride launches in 2008. Moebius was a 2006-2007 series. Incidentally, Ganbaride is predated by a similar Ultraman-themed arcade/CCG fusion published by Bandai, called Mega Monster Battle: Ultra Monsters. I believe Ultra Monsters is published alongside the 2007-2008 Ultra Galaxy series. Bandai also, I believe, did the toy marketing for Moebius, Ultra Galaxy, and other recent Ultra productions (call me on it I'm wrong, toy collectors). Even if the idea totally originates with Bandai, they still tried it out with Ultraman before moving on to pushing it for Toei's properties. And to some extent they're still pushing it with Ultraman, since the franchise hasn't really been out of crossover mode since Moebius (perhaps to its detriment).

Adding the Mega Monster Battle influences, I guess you're right about Toei being influenced by Ultraman, even if it was through Bandai. Doesn't Ultra Galaxy even use cards in the show itself?

No, you're misremembering a bit. W and Decade entered production at the same time. Since it was known that Decade would be a short series, its successor had to be developed at the same time if it was going to have episodes ready to air the week after Decade finished. That's also why W's production staff is largely people who didn't work on Rider before. All of Rider's usual suspects at the time were participating in Decade.

Hm... I couldn't find the interview before replying this time, but didn't the idea and production of the 30 episodes show actually come before they decided to make it "Decade"?

 

[Lynxara]

Doesn't Ultra Galaxy even use cards in the show itself?

Yeah, Rei loads cards into a reader to summon his monster pals. You can clearly see the barcodes and everything.

I've heard there's a Pretty Cure crossover arcade game series that's along the lines of Dice-Oh/Ganbaride/Ultra Monsters and ties in with the DX movies, but I don't know what it's called or if it actually exists.

Hm... I couldn't find the interview before replying this time, but didn't the idea and production of the 30 episodes show actually come before they decided to make it "Decade"?

That's not clear from the Tsukada interview, since they only mention things Tsukada knew (Decade will air first, it's a big anniversary celebration). It's not clear whether or not Tsukada knew Decade was a crossover, or when it was decided Decade would be a crossover. I imagine there's a Japanese interview out there somewhere that straightens things out, and we just need someone to find/translate it.

 

[KamenRiderUNDERGROUND]

OK I finally had a go at the whole movie with Chinese subs (don't think English ones are out yet). Aside from my complaints in the 'rumour' thread, here are some additional points:

- The majority of the movie was Kamen Rider Diend x Gokai Blue viewing the fight in their perspective. You would have expected more stuff behind the scene from Decade and Marvelous but that only was a small part of the movie. Much of that crap on the ship and Den-Liner could really have been scrapped.

- Why is Eiji the representative to shake hands with Marvelous? I mean isn't it Decade x Gokaiger? Instead he was with Kaito a.k.a. the 'losing side', it still felt like the movie made it Super Sentai > Kamen Rider.... Anyone I like Eiji more so I'm fine with that bit

- Decade had has normal hair at the end. Thank god for that.

 

[NeonZ]

- The majority of the movie was Kamen Rider Diend x Gokai Blue viewing the fight in their perspective. You would have expected more stuff behind the scene from Decade and Marvelous but that only was a small part of the movie. Much of that crap on the ship and Den-Liner could really have been scrapped.

Diend and Gokaiblue meet each other at the 33 minute point, and they're in the past meeting 'Akaranger' by the 52 minute point of the movie. In the middle of those 19 minutes, there's also the quick Decade vs Goseigers bit and the Marvelous vs Tsukasa battle. Also, out of those, they only spend 2:30 minutes in the Denliner.

Marvelous and Tsukasa couldn't get 'behind the scene" moments because they wanted to keep the reason for their battle a secret, and they were also keeping it a secret from other characters.

Instead he was with Kaito a.k.a. the 'losing side', it still felt like the movie made it Super Sentai > Kamen Rider.... Anyone I like Eiji more so I'm fine with that bit

The only real favoring to the Sentai side was Decade not doing well against the Go-Busters - and that was mostly just Go-Busters marketing. Don't forget that the main villains end up all coming from Decade itself, especially with the way Hunter Silva comes off as just a warrior in the final scenes, with Narutaki giving orders to everyone, and Hunter's killed before Narutaki and Diend are defeated.

 

[Kamen Rider ShinkenRed]

Honestly the only thing I dislike about this movie is the fact that Diend randomly becomes a villain at the end, which doesn't really fit with my idea of him at all. Everything else worked for me. I suppose they could have done without the second Joe/Daiki fight as well.

With the whole Daiki uses Big Machine thing, I feel like they were in a rush to finish it really. I can accept Daiki both taking the key things, and stealing Big Machine, but I don't get his trying to fight the Go-Busters. I think there should have been another remade villain to pilot the Big Machine.

 

[NeonZ]

They could just have made the big machine become conscious and combine by itself, but I feel like they had Diend's turn at the end in order to show another consequence of Decade's and Gokaired's actions. After the plan is revealed, Narutaki questions Tsukasa about it being the actions of an hero, and then Tsukasa goes on to talk about doing dirty things to destroy evil. Diend's turn seems to be in line with that theme - a bad consequence of Tsukasa's "dirty" plan.

 

[Kamen Rider ShinkenRed]

I guess that kind of makes sense, it still feels like it came out of left field though.

 

[Dr Kain]

Wow, what a disappointment. We just watched my Super Hero Taisen Blu-Ray that arrived yesterday and it was a major let down. There was hardly any Kamen Rider/Sentai action in it, the big baddies of the movie were taken out way too quickly, Joe was completely out of character as he was far too emotional for some reason instead of cool headed like he was in Gokaiger, the OOO forms were pointless, and nobody really did anything with each other. There was no chemistry between the casts at all.