Riders and Henshins: New bodies or armor?

[Burkion]

With Black, I think it's a two stage transformation.

See, Black and Shadow Moon were both turned into Grasshopper mutants (like the MOTW of Black, the various beasts they fight) but then they were given the Kingstone which evolved them beyond the basic mutant into the Century Kings.

So what you're seeing is Shotaro becoming his true form, a mutant Grasshopper, which is then further mutated/evolved into his Century King self, Black Sun.

In theory if he got both Kingstones he'd further mutate into something else entirely.

 

[shingamyeonblack]

I like the idea that the original riders actually do wear "suits" but really it's more like a "costume". THEY are the rider, and they LOOK human. They can use all those abilities WHILE appearing human (unlike Heisei riders). They put on the costume and helmet for show, perhaps for intimidation or a reason I don't know since I haven't seen the originals.

The suit provide some more protection, but it basically is for masked superhero purposes. It just makes them Kamen Rider.

A couple of questions to start with:

I've only seen the first couple of episodes of the original show, but the implication (which sems to be confirmed by what people have already said here) is that basically even when untransformed Ichigo is an organic brain with a more or less wholey robotic body, with a layer of skin and hair over the top. So when he henshins, does the rider costume appear over his skin, or replace it? Either way I guess it's basically just a visual change.

What exactly happens with Black? It certainly seems like a body change, but is it a suit too? This may get answered in the show but I've only seen 15 episodes so far. The first episode has him transform into an insectoid creature, which briefly appears in the henshin sequence thereafter, which to me implies that Kotaro turns into that. But that's not the familiar Black costume. So does he further change and the costume is meant to be his actual skin? Or does he transform into an insectoid creature, which wears armor?

The first ones have the suit go over their bodies. You can see maskless Hongo that way.

Black transforms his body. He has higher abilities in his human form than others, but he gains more power through his transformation. The insectoid form is part of his body change, so it is part of the transformation. It is intermediary to the complete Kamen Rider Black form.

 

[LaZerwolfX]

Glamador is not understanding the point of your words. Of...of course this is all speculation. Were you operating under the assumption that we were trying to state any of this is fact?

These are the basics of reasoned interaction between persons...there is evidence stated by characters or observable by the audience within the canon of these shows. We are examining this EVIDENCE and attempting to draw CONCLUSIONS. That's what fans DO. Feel free to join us.

Or you could leave and let us carry on our discussion. That might save some effort all around.

We're using evidence to draw conclusions and all you've got is "I have nothing, so neither do you!!!"

So to be a fan I have to come up with theories to explain minute details that aren't explained possibly because they aren't that important? Why? Do i not qualify if i don't? thats a very one dimensional way to look at it. and I'm not saying you need facts to speculate, but i am saying that the "evidence" you used to back up your personal interpretation on Kiva and W are so vaguely explained in their respectful canon that you could argue any number of viewpoints with them. For instance I think the W Driver filters the gaia memories abilities through the base suit which allow it to stretch and produce fire, or manifest guns and stuff. or are you gonna argue that W physically mutates and grows a gun on his chest?

 

[MattComix]

With Black, I think it's a two stage transformation.

See, Black and Shadow Moon were both turned into Grasshopper mutants (like the MOTW of Black, the various beasts they fight) but then they were given the Kingstone which evolved them beyond the basic mutant into the Century Kings.

So what you're seeing is Shotaro becoming his true form, a mutant Grasshopper, which is then further mutated/evolved into his Century King self, Black Sun.

In theory if he got both Kingstones he'd further mutate into something else entirely.

Not to harp on a typo but you mean Kotaro becoming his true form. I see where you are coming from with the idea of the two-stage transformation. Black is definately a Rider I would classify under the "fighting body" description I used in my post.

Though I always thought that Kotaro's Rider form was the result of his humanity asserting itself over his monster form due to his not being brainwashed so the result that we see as Kamen Rider Black is a fusion of his humanity and his monster power focused through the Kingstone. In Shadowmoon the same thing is happening but it's the negative aspects of humanity that are being focused because he has been brainwashed and what's left of Nobuhiko is only the worst of who he was.

In a weird way sometimes it's good when they don't explain every aspect and leave some things to the viewers imagination to fill in the gaps.

 

[Ziginz Zegell]

or are you gonna argue that W physically mutates and grows a gun on his chest?

I'm down with that.

Technorganic stuff isn't that of the question now-a-days in the realm of Sci-Fi kid shows...or any other sci-fi show for that matter. Worked for the Trigger dopant anyway...and Arms dopant...Commander dopant. There was alot of heavy ordinance in W.

W is a dopant in my mind, just one born from filtered gaia memories. That is also why they could fuse physicaly when they became Extreme, why Accel could turn into a motor bike, and skull could shoot a massive, energy skull from his chest. I'll even go as far as to argue the prisim beaker was technorganic as were the memories. Plus crazy gaia memory energy data bullshit that I love so much. Then again that is also why KR CORE happened...man I really don't like CORE...oh well.


I also liked the idea of Ichigo and Nigo wearing armor so they could conceal themselves as normal humans, while also getting the defense the suits imparted to them. Cyborgs or not, they could still be damaged, especially if they still had organic components in their bodies. The armor allows them to hide their human forms so they could be used as shocker agents in public only transforming when it was stime to kill.

I'm in my only little camp where Shocker inhumanoids were not only cybernetically altered, but also biologically. That is why so many shocker cyborgs looks..well...organic. They improved what they could through genetic alteration, and then used cybernetics to replace what they couldn't.

The double riders might be the exception to this or a more advanced altered human that didn't have significant physical mutations from their alteration. This may also explain why so few riders were developed: expense. Even shocker must have limits to what they can do financially.

Of course if this is the case at all, then it means the movie had more retcon then we thought. Would that count as retcon?

My prove...if you can call it that, lies with the Kamen Rider Gaia manga. The hero of said manga started out looking like a more organic Kamen Rider style Kaijin before refining his metamorphosis into armor.

In the Skullman manga (the newer one from the 90's), a Kamen Rider style character appeared with a smiliar issue as Gaia that was eventually resolved with him in rider armor.

Long story short, it is probably armor, but that doesn't mean it can't be technorganic armor produced from their bodies that can be removed like any other suit.

By the way, while Ishinomori didn't produce that second skullman manga himself he did pass the torch to the mangaka who did and gave him some data on what he wanted. Not sure about Gaia though.

 

[NeonZ]

Or "lung converters" are just a name. Once again unless you had the opportunity to sit in on W's design process, you have no way of having a 100% definitive answer. I'm totally game to share opinions, but don't try and tell me I'm wrong when you're just as clueless as the rest of us.

Did you completely miss how I pointed out how there's a magazine scan showing W's interior? Or did you just think I was lying?

It doesn't seem to show anything human under the external armor, in spite of some sections having several cut ins.

Yet again, even sticking with the show's material, the series features Shotaro's face gaining strange marks while he transforms into W. Why would they do that if the transformation had no internal changes to his body and were only an external armor? IIRC, there were also some Dopant abilities which worked on skin contact and they did work against W and Accel.

or are you gonna argue that W physically mutates and grows a gun on his chest?

Did you forget the Joker Extreme attack, where his body splits in half? Even if you believe that W is a completely external transformation, it's still somehow transforming Shotaro's body for some abilities. Same goes to Accel, just look at his bike form.

It makes much more sense for the initial transformation to modify Shotaro's body (and we know that it happens to some level from the show itself, considering the face lines) into a form that allows him to use the special abilities a normal human body's can't, than for the initial transformation to just summon armor, but then specific attacks later completely transform Shotaro's body from whatever they need to 100% human without any external changes to W itself, and then back to normal human after they're finished, all in a split second.

 

[Khaiden]

I'm in my only little camp where Shocker inhumanoids were not only cybernetically altered, but also biologically. That is why so many shocker cyborgs looks..well...organic. They improved what they could through genetic alteration, and then used cybernetics to replace what they couldn't.

Nah, it's not your little camp, it's pretty clear the changes they undergo are mostly biological, their organic structure is completely altered as well. A good example is Pirasaurus.

Same goes to Accel, just look at his bike form.

Damn, how could I forget about that?

 

[MattComix]

Interesting! I've never seen that cut-away pic of W before. I remember reading that Kamen Rider Faiz had something called a "Fullmetal Lung". So it's possible the term "lung" is not meant literally as Faiz is very clearly armor. Could even just be an engrishy name for the suits power source.

I tend to view W as being an armor for Shotaro with Phillips mind along for the ride (ala the Firestorm example I used) and for something like Fang this situation is just reversed. Then again this by itself could be viewed as an alteration to the body.

However it does seem to be a little unclear. I think the markings that appear on Shotaro's face are just a stylistic callback to Ishinomori's manga art.

 

[Ziginz Zegell]

While I am still sticking to my guns about it being a physical change, the lines alone are kind of a weak argument. They could simply be a suit producing connections to his nervous system to allow for better control. MattComix could also be right in saying it is just an asthetic take from Ishinomori's rider concepts.

As I said I am all for W being a complete physical transformation, but the lines arn't the reason for my believe. They may indeed be a sign of physical change, the early phase of a suit spreading over their body, or they might just be visual flare for hard core fans.

 

[Glamador]

Did you forget the Joker Extreme attack, where his body splits in half? Even if you believe that W is a completely external transformation, it's still somehow transforming Shotaro's body for some abilities. Same goes to Accel, just look at his bike form.

Yeah that's the same argument I'm getting at with the Luna abilities. And the idea that touch-based attacks work on him is extremely telling. If the attacks only work on skin-contact then Double's suit must count as skin. QED.