Kamen Rider Kuuga Discussion SPOILERS

[MattComix]

The ending fight is exactly what it needed to be in terms of the themes of the show. Keep in mind the Grongi were humans. Humans who tossed aside their humanity. Take all the flash away you just have how horrible and pathetic people killing each other actually is. It's not cool, it's not badass, it's not glamorous, it's just fucking dumb.

Then on the one side you have this kid totally getting off on it all while on the other you have a person who has no choice but to fight till his last breath to stop him, knowing that he will have to kill him even though deep down the idea of hurting anyone breaks his heart.

I do think that Kuuga's first fight with Zeba should have been on-camera. I think being able to see the initial fight in-suit would have balanced the scaled down fight of the ending.

I have no idea why it was not filmed but I seem to remember reading that the story was covered in a radio special? Anybody who can confirm or deny this please do.

 

[Fantasy Leader]

The ending was very well written and did exactly what the show needed to... and that's exactly what some people have a problem with Kuuga's ending. Kuuga's ending chose to stick to it's themes with very good writing consistency, at the cost of trying to be "fun" and "flashy." And that's something some fans have issues with. Some fans didn't want to see a finale that was so well written. They wanted to see a finale that was all "kickass and fun." I personally however found the ending's execution to be fun and a marvel to watch in it's own right. It's a very unique ending.

 

[Toku Prime]

For me, Kuuga as a series asked one question throughout it's run: why does Godai continue to "protect everyone's smiles" from the Grongi, given the pain and suffering (and death) he goes through? Sakurako and Minori are used to make clear how dangerous and horrible his fight is, and they both ask him multiple times why he does it. It's an interesting question for the series to ask - why do people (policemen, firemen, even soldiers) put themselves through hell repeatedly for the sakes of people they've never met? It's a question that other superhero franchises (e.g. Batman) have asked, and the answers given are often essays in themselves. With Kuuga though, the answer tends to be a shrug and "well, Yusuke's a nice guy like that". Honestly, it seems like they've asked a big, complicated question and given it a small, dismissive answer. The ending is the same - they put Yusuke through utter hell and then say "well wasn't he a nice guy to do that for us". Personally I don't find that very satisfying.

There are also some problems with how the ending is shot. I get that the plot demanded they have the fight well away from inhabited areas, and that the snow makes it seem even bleaker, but frankly you can't see what's going on and if the fight is meant to be bleak and brutal it's less effective for not being able to see that. Also, it's not as horrific a fight as people seem to make it out to be. Here in the UK there are soap operas with more brutal chick fights than that. So personally I found that the fight doesn't live up to what everyone else says it is meant to be about. There are also some writing issues as Dr Kain pointed out; the rose lady who has seemed so important is axed off and proves not to be, and is replaced by a new enemy at the last minute that we really know nothing about. We barely know anything more about the final bad guy than we do about the average MotW, and even that knowledge is only known because the Grongi tell us it. The old adage "show, don't tell" should have been applied here.

As for the lack of Ultimate Form, well I can understand why that would disappoint people. I know Kuuga didn't follow the same cheery-ending formula as some other riders (though it's not unique in that regard - Agito may have had a happy ending but I don't think we got another unambiguously triumphant ending until Kabuto) but it didn't hesitate to indulge in showing off the brand new forms whenever they debuted, and it would be entirely reasonable to assume it would be the same in this case, especially as they went out of their way to often tell us how powerful Ultimate Form is, exactly as if they were building up to a massive, showy finale.

Having said all that, I don't think Kuuga is a bad show at all. It has some very realistic-feeling moments, dealt with some things that no other Rider show since has touched, and found such a massive audience that it brought the franchise back for what is now it's longest ever constant run. No Rider show is perfect but Kuuga is a strong entry, especially considering that it didn't have the "help" of extra Riders or comic relief characters.

 

[Burkion]

Well, the big bad *WAS* in the show from episode 1.

They made that very clear-there was some one above and beyond Roselady, and if you could understand the Grongi and their language that is revealed pretty much day one.

Mind that's a bit much, but still. He was there, even if you didn't understand their language.


You also have to consider, for how 'brutal' the fight is, just when it was made and for what audience.

It was made in 2000.

It was made for, primarily, kids.


So is the final fight brutal?

By its' own standards?

Oh my yes-it's the harshest fight of any Rider series since the Old School era, definitely compared to anything that's come since Decade from my personal experience.


Kuuga and D. were punching each other so hard that they would spurt blood everywhere-there's nothing like that in newer Rider shows and I'd be hard pressed to find anything like it in anything after Kuuga.

But it was a kids show still, thus they were confined to just what they could do and get away with.



This is why, whenever I bring up how I hate how a lot of newer Riders, and Sentai to an extent though it doesn't really apply here, have all the needless comedy and what not and blah blah blah, been down that arguement a thousand times before... This is why the excuse "Kamen Rider is made for kids, what do you expect?" fails so utterly for me.

Because Kuuga, the show, exists. It was made for kids, and you know, I'd like to think that we could maybe we could have another one of these days. I'd love to have one better, in fact.

It's been over a decade.


Of course when Kuuga DID get brought back, he got Rising Ultimate which is the absolute worst so maybe this is all for the best.

 

[Scissors]

Kuuga is a show that expects the viewers to "read" the emotions that it gives them, and if you try to analyze the little details in some of the scenes, you get some very interesting conclusions.

I always saw Godai as a kind of tragic character, because he clearly had some issues which lead him to "go dark" at one point in the show.
He always had to put his own emotions aside in order to help others. He had a huge pressure on his shoulders, and many of the characters showed great concern for him.

It is like a parent who has keep a straight face in order to calm down a child.
Godai knew that he did not have the luxury of being scared, hurt or angry, because people were looking up to him as their hope.

With this in mind, I always thought that the scene where he goes berserk on Jaraji was very deep.
I never felt that it was a "Wow! Cool!" moment.
It was more like "****... Godai..."
The scene almost felt uncomfortable.

Maybe I am over-analyzing things...

 

[Dr Kain]

The ending fight is exactly what it needed to be in terms of the themes of the show. Keep in mind the Grongi were humans. Humans who tossed aside their humanity. Take all the flash away you just have how horrible and pathetic people killing each other actually is. It's not cool, it's not badass, it's not glamorous, it's just fucking dumb.

When did they say this? I never once heard Sakurako say the Grongi were once humans/Rintos.

The ending was very well written and did exactly what the show needed to... and that's exactly what some people have a problem with Kuuga's ending. Kuuga's ending chose to stick to it's themes with very good writing consistency, at the cost of trying to be "fun" and "flashy." And that's something some fans have issues with. Some fans didn't want to see a finale that was so well written. They wanted to see a finale that was all "kickass and fun." I personally however found the ending's execution to be fun and a marvel to watch in it's own right. It's a very unique ending.

It doesn't have to be flashy, but I wanted a final battle that felt like a final battle. I wanted a battle against someone who was developed, not someone who had a screen time total of 2 minutes, with 80 seconds of that being from a battle. No 0 is worst than the freaking King Orphenoch in that regard.

Well, the big bad *WAS* in the show from episode 1.

They made that very clear-there was some one above and beyond Roselady, and if you could understand the Grongi and their language that is revealed pretty much day one.

Not for me because the fansubbers didn't bother to translate the Grongi language. -_-

Of course, their video quality was also utter ****, so I guess it isn't surprising.

You also have to consider, for how 'brutal' the fight is, just when it was made and for what audience.

It was made in 2000.

It was made for, primarily, kids.


So is the final fight brutal?

By its' own standards?

Oh my yes-it's the harshest fight of any Rider series since the Old School era, definitely compared to anything that's come since Decade from my personal experience.

Okay, but that doesn't tell me anything about the character Yusuke was fighting. Again, why would he go into human form to fight Yusuke when he could have easily killed him in his Grongi form?

BTW, I wanted to mention that my favorite episode of the series is the three parter (well, really two since one of the episdes was a god damn clip show) with the Grongi on the motorcycle. That was an awesome set of episodes. In fact, one of the things Kuuga did extremely well was the motorcycle stunts and battles. Those freaking rocked and it was nice to see bikes finally have a purpose in the show other than to take 3 seconds to get to a battle.

 

[Burkion]

When did they say this? I never once heard Sakurako say the Grongi were once humans/Rintos.

I'd have to rewatch, but I'm almost certain it did come up that the Grongi were basically the same as humans, and had split from the Linto Tribe to become what they are. After all, Kuuga himself is basically a Grongi, so what they became had to of been similar, mirrored in Dabonga himself being a match for Kuuga design wise.

Not for me because the fansubbers didn't bother to translate the Grongi language. -_-

Of course, their video quality was also utter ****, so I guess it isn't surprising.

Midnight Crews started to do an improved Fansub with the Grongi translated and it really shed light on a lot of things, but they didn't get very far.

Okay, but that doesn't tell me anything about the character Yusuke was fighting. Again, why would he go into human form to fight Yusuke when he could have easily killed him in his Grongi form?

Really, when you get down to it, that fight scene told you all there was to know about No. 0-he's a crazed child who's having the time of his life just beating the life out of some one while getting the life beaten out of him.

That's all he is, and it explains a lot about the Grongi.

Beyond that, he wasn't turning back into a human, that was just a style choice for the fight, show the humanity, or utter lack thereof in No. 0's case, of the conflict and how it affected both participants.

Unless you mean at the very end, in which case you weren't paying attention- Kuuga and No. 0 destroyed one another's belts, forcing them to be human while they beat each other to a bloody death.

The Grongi were just humans with Kuuga-Like power, after all.






As to Scissors, I believe that was EXACTLY what was going on, and that was definitely the intent.

You either get it and understand, or you don't and are confused. The build up to more power was never a good thing, and when Kuuga gave into his rage briefly we got a flash of what Black Eyes Ultimate Kuuga would be like-and it wouldn't have been pretty. The final fight was never supposed to be flashy, it was always supposed to be tragic.


However, there's an add on to this statement-you can get it and still not LIKE it. This isn't some pretentious bullshit crap where you only dislike it if you don't understand it, Kuuga does a lot of things a lot of people wouldn't like.

I'd honestly like to see a show that takes itself as seriously as Kuuga be done, but with the same fun and adventure as the Old School Riders, myself. That would be perfect.

Sadly we may never get such a show.

 

[FlashNeko]

When did they say this? I never once heard Sakurako say the Grongi were once humans/Rintos.

There's two really big moments when it's mentioned that I remember, even though it's been a long while since I sat down and watched the show.

It's initially hinted at way back in... I think episode 3 or 4 where the police are examining the remains of the Spider Grongi and discover his blood has the most in common with human blood.

And then MUCH later during the autopsy of the Bat Grongi they discover that his body is pretty much in the same state that Godai's is. The doctor then draws the conclusion that, at some point, the Grongi were humans before throwing it away for the power they inserted into themselves.

Of course, their video quality was also utter ****, so I guess it isn't surprising.

Out of curiosity, did you watch the HK subs? 'Cause that's what your description makes it sound like.

 

[Smilodon]

Tsubaki also stated early on that the Grongi had stones within their bodies that allowed their transformation that was similar in nature to the Amadam within Godai.

 

[Dr Kain]

There's two really big moments when it's mentioned that I remember, even though it's been a long while since I sat down and watched the show.

Out of curiosity, did you watch the HK subs? 'Cause that's what your description makes it sound like.

No, I watched some fansub group called MFC or something like that. They were pretty awful subs.