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It's the only Zecter that always left users who went against Zect?

Then how did it go to Tendou whenever he used the Perfect Zecter? Why didn't it go back to Mishima after Kageyama was rejected? (Why was he rejected if we go by your theory?)

When it left him, he hadn't betrayed Zect, but he had received orders to kill worms, and went directly against them, ignoring the worms to fight against Tendo.

But he was under orders to bring Tendou in or eliminate him.

That WAS addressed in the show. He wanted to take every Zecter so no Rider would attack Hiyori

Given how Daisuke and eventually even Tsurugi didn't seem to really give a damn about fighting Worms, I don't think that would have been much of a problem >>


but after the Red Shoes incident he realized that he can't do everything by himself and gives up on that idea, letting people take their Zecters back. The Perfect Zecter only appears after he had already returned the Zecters to their owners.

Him giving the Zecters back was never addressed. They just reappeared with them without explanation. Plus the whole idea of the Perfect Zecter taking other Zecters away not only is a pretty stupid battle strategy, but it negated Tendou giving them back to the others, since he could just retrieve them again whenever he wanted.

Because that's part of the basic premise of Kabuto's setting. For whatever reason, the Zecters needed real AIs to work and Zect didn't have much control over those AIs.

The premise of the early episodes was that Tendou mysteriously gained possession of ZECT property when he was neither a member nor the person who was supposed to be Kabuto. Now to say that the Zecters were designed that way and were allowed to find whomever they wanted.... when we already know that ZECT wanted to take back the Zecters that went to people who shouldn't have them... and then later one forget about these rogue Riders entirely (like with Sasword)... that's rather dumb writing.

It'd be a very different show if that element didn't exist. I mean, it's like complaining about Ryuuki because Kanzaki had to make a Rider battle rather than just kill a bunch of people to get their life force.

Ryuki and Kabuto are in two different contexts. Besides, in Ryuki Kanzaki personally chose people to become Riders. Shinji only found his deck by accident. In Kabuto we have so many ideas thrown into the same pot that contradict each other.
 
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Then how did it go to Tendou whenever he used the Perfect Zecter?

It seems to be part of the Perfect Zecter's abilities. It's not like he made the Zecters randomly go to him in other circumstances.

The only other time a similar ability was shown, it was by native who kept being hunted by the worms (he also said that natives don't like to fight, which explains why they didn't just use the Zecters by themselves under usual circumstances).

Why didn't it go back to Mishima after Kageyama was rejected? (Why was he rejected if we go by your theory?)

Because Tendo had joined Zect by that point and Kageyama kept attacking him? Also, this reminds me. By that point, Tendo was trying to be the only Rider and never showed any cooperative actions. Yet, TheBee Zecter still flew straight to his hand after it left a defeated Kageyama.

But he was under orders to bring Tendou in or eliminate him.

At the time, his specific orders were to eliminate a bunch of worms that had appeared. He specifically told Tendo that he didn't care about the worms and needed to eliminate him, or else his self image would disappear.

Him giving the Zecters back was never addressed. They just reappeared with them without explanation.

You're right about it never being shown on screen, but Tendo says that he's going to give back the Zecters near the ending of episode 36, after the whole Red Shoes incident.

The premise of the early episodes was that Tendou mysteriously gained possession of ZECT property when he was neither a member nor the person who was supposed to be Kabuto.

But he only got the Zecter because it flew straight to him. He was chosen by it. He wasn't the only one with a belt around by that point. Every Rider introduced afterwards followed the same pattern - although presumably they also took the transformation devices with them, like they did a few times in later episodes.

However, yes, Zect wanted to keep the Riders under their control, but that obviously didn't happen. I'm not saying that Zect wished that situation, I'm saying that the situation described above was part of the premise done by the show's creators.

If you changed things around to a system where Zect had control of the Zecters and their chosen ones, or the Zecters just had no personality and could be stolen by anyone, you'd end up with a very different show. That's why I'm saying that it's part of Kabuto's basic premise. I don't think Zect intended to create that situation for itself.

Ryuki and Kabuto are in two different contexts. Besides, in Ryuki Kanzaki personally chose people to become Riders.

Why did he need Riders at all though? Why couldn't he just make a single Rider controlled by him, Odin, and then go around killing normal people to absorb life force directly? He'd certainly like to do that to save Yui without failing repeatedly.

That's basically the question you're asking when you wonder about why each Zecter had to have a will of its own. It's part of the technology settings used by the show directly connected with their premise. Those elements could be answered, but you'd just have a bunch of meaningless technobabble.
 
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It seems to be part of the Perfect Zecter's abilities. It's not like he made the Zecters randomly go to him in other circumstances.

That's pretty stupid from a story perspective. (Though probably a cool feature in the eyes of Bandai). Come to think of it, why did Tsurugi even agree to sell his Zecter when he wanted to fight the Worms too?


Because Tendo had joined Zect by that point and Kageyama kept attacking him? Also, this reminds me. By that point, Tendo was trying to be the only Rider and never showed any cooperative actions. Yet, TheBee Zecter still flew straight to his hand after it left a defeated Kageyama.

Tendou only joined ZECT as a ruse, and using his pseudonym Tendouji Soujiro. And I think there were people who were on to him from the start, so it doesn't make much sense that Zabee would suddenly want him. Plus it seemed that idea of him joining was soon dropped to move onto other minutia.

At the time, his specific orders were to eliminate a bunch of worms that had appeared. He specifically told Tendo that he didn't care about the worms and needed to eliminate him, or else his self image would disappear.

But he had never been told to cancel the hunt for Kabuto either.

You're right about it never being shown on screen, but Tendo says that he's going to give back the Zecters near the ending of episode 36, after the whole Red Shoes incident.

The whole thing really looked like a not-very-thought-out way to advertise the Perfect Zecter. Frankly, I think the Zecter combining feature should have been dropped entirely. Just give the sword some more buttons and stuff. Taking the Zecters away all time just makes the other characters pointless.

But he only got the Zecter because it flew straight to him. He was chosen by it. He wasn't the only one with a belt around by that point. Every Rider introduced afterwards followed the same pattern - although presumably they also took the transformation devices with them, like they did a few times in later episodes.

But it wasn't supposed to go to him, at least in ZECT's mind. ZECT clearly had an idea that whomever was delivered the belt would get Kabuto, but Tendou suddenly has his own belt. This is why the events of GSL would make sense to be in continuity with the show, because then we would know why Tendou expected Kabuto to come: he had been given it years ago.

However, yes, Zect wanted to keep the Riders under their control, but that obviously didn't happen. I'm not saying that Zect wished that situation, I'm saying that the situation described above was part of the premise done by the show's creators.

If you changed things around to a system where Zect had control of the Zecters and their chosen ones, or the Zecters just had no personality and could be stolen by anyone, you'd end up with a very different show. That's why I'm saying that it's part of Kabuto's basic premise. I don't think Zect intended to create that situation for itself.

If they had just explained why there were loose Zecters in the first place (For example, an accident caused a bunch of Zecters to be released), it would resolve a lot of unanswered questions and plotholes. The way they did it, you have several conflicting ideas trying to work together.

Those elements could be answered, but you'd just have a bunch of meaningless technobabble.

It's only meaningless technobabble if the writer can't or won't think of anything logical and concise to say to explain things.
 
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Come to think of it, why did Tsurugi even agree to sell his Zecter when he wanted to fight the Worms too?

He was trying to fix his past mistakes by that point and needed the money, even if he was still mostly in comic relief mode.

He also thought that he could use his family's heirloom, the Discalibur, to fight against Worms - and it actually worked at least once, although it rendered selling his Zecter useless because his butler had sold it and needed to use the money to buy it again.

Tendou only joined ZECT as a ruse, and using his pseudonym Tendouji Soujiro.

Of course, but I don't think Zecters have been shown to be able to read minds.

Plus it seemed that idea of him joining was soon dropped to move onto other minutia.

He joined Zect just to get closer to the Hyper Zecter, but even afterwards he was still shown working alongside them in official operations and even arranged an official meeting with Kagami's father, so it seems like he didn't leave until the final arc started.

The whole thing really looked like a not-very-thought-out way to advertise the Perfect Zecter. Frankly, I think the Zecter combining feature should have been dropped entirely. Just give the sword some more buttons and stuff. Taking the Zecters away all time just makes the other characters pointless.

That whole incident happened several episodes before the Perfect Zecter debuted, and even after that it didn't just summon the others Zecters in the first battle.

But it wasn't supposed to go to him, at least in ZECT's mind. ZECT clearly had an idea that whomever was delivered the belt would get Kabuto, but Tendou suddenly has his own belt.

Sure, I'm not denying any of that. However, if the Zect didn't chose the user by itself, then Tendo having a second belt would have been pointless - or, at least, the series would need to be significantly changed to make him actively try to steal the Zecter from them in the first episode, rather than just make it fly to him.

This is why the events of GSL would make sense to be in continuity with the show, because then we would know why Tendou expected Kabuto to come: he had been given it years ago.

That doesn't really make any difference. If he received the belt, he probably was told something about it. I don't see how watching a docked on Kabuto Zecter that just disappeared without even showing the mobile mode would help explaining much. Also, in the first episode, Tendo says that he isn't sure about what he's waiting for.

If they had just explained why there were loose Zecters in the first place (For example, an accident caused a bunch of Zecters to be released), it would resolve a lot of unanswered questions and plotholes. The way they did it, you have several conflicting ideas trying to work together.

I don't see why running away would be necessary. The Zecter chose they users, so there's nothing Zect can do about it, really. Of course, they'll want to do something, but there's nothing conflicting about their wishes not becoming reality due to something out of their control.

It's only meaningless technobabble if the writer can't or won't think of anything logical and concise to say to explain things.

We were talking about the Zecters having wills of their own. It's a basic part of Kabuto's premise and any kind of explanation will be technobabble. They couldn't even pass it off as part of Riku's actions because it'd be something way too obvious to everyone, not some kind of secret.
 
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He was trying to fix his past mistakes by that point and needed the money, even if he was still mostly in comic relief mode.

He also thought that he could use his family's heirloom, the Discalibur, to fight against Worms - and it actually worked at least once, although it rendered selling his Zecter useless because his butler had sold it and needed to use the money to buy it again.

So it was another pointless storyline.

He joined Zect just to get closer to the Hyper Zecter, but even afterwards he was still shown working alongside them in official operations and even arranged an official meeting with Kagami's father, so it seems like he didn't leave until the final arc started.

He pretended to join ZECT in order to find out how to destroy it from within.

That whole incident happened several episodes before the Perfect Zecter debuted, and even after that it didn't just summon the others Zecters in the first battle.

But in other battles it just took Zecters from people even when they were using them. Seriously, what were Toei and Bandai thinking here?

That doesn't really make any difference. If he received the belt, he probably was told something about it. I don't see how watching a docked on Kabuto Zecter that just disappeared without even showing the mobile mode would help explaining much. Also, in the first episode, Tendo says that he isn't sure about what he's waiting for.

I will admit that the filming of those scenes could have been better done. But I still think that not suddenly contradicting the GSL events in the second half would have helped Kabuto rather than hurt it.

I don't see why running away would be necessary. The Zecter chose they users, so there's nothing Zect can do about it, really. Of course, they'll want to do something, but there's nothing conflicting about their wishes not becoming reality due to something out of their control.

Are you kidding? The whole plot of ZECT trying to get rouge Riders who found Zecters to join ZECT is made utterly pointless then. You can't say they allow the Zecters to freely fly away and then say they wanted to hunt down and retrieve them. There's no logic to that. ZECT would want people within the organization to receive the Zecters. Why on Earth would they allow them to break loose and find random people? Even if it was part of a deliberate scheme, say something about it! Don't just leave it there unanswered! I honestly don't get how you can't see this gaping flaw. Heck I don't see how you seem to excuse Kabuto in general.
 
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So it was another pointless storyline.

Well, he basically stopped with his attempts at acting superior at that point, so it wasn't just something that went nowhere.

He pretended to join ZECT in order to find out how to destroy it from within.

I'm not denying that. I'm just saying that it doesn't really change anything. As far as we know, Zecters can't read minds.

But in other battles it just took Zecters from people even when they were using them. Seriously, what were Toei and Bandai thinking here?

Well, the products of the first 3 secondary Riders apparently just weren't selling. The Perfect Zecter was introduced probably to tie those Zecters to Tendo somehow and see if they'd get a sales boost with that.

In any case, I was just saying there that there was a big gap between Tendo collecting the Zecters, giving up on them and saying that he'll return them to the episode where the Perfect Zecter actually summoned the other Zecters. That story had nothing to do with the later Perfect Zecter.

I will admit that the filming of those scenes could have been better done. But I still think that not suddenly contradicting the GSL events in the second half would have helped Kabuto rather than hurt it.

Well, like I mentioned before, the scene shown in GLS never really lined up perfectly with the flashbacks shown in the series, even as early as episode 8, before the movie started getting any official acknowledgment.

The whole plot of ZECT trying to get rouge Riders who found Zecters to join ZECT is made utterly pointless then. You can't say they allow the Zecters to freely fly away and then say they wanted to hunt down and retrieve them.

You're mixing together a bunch of different situations though. Zect had their own Kabuto belt and someone who was supposed to get that Zecter, so, yes, they (outside of Riku by himself - and he actually says something very early on that makes it obvious he knows Tendo got it and what is his goal) didn't expect it to end up with someone else and didn't want that situation to go on.

However, specifically, regarding Drake, they're never shown to have any internal candidates for it. In fact, they're directly shown to be waiting for the chosen one of the Drake Zecter (in the ending of the episode right before Drake's debut).

ZECT would want people within the organization to receive the Zecters.

They would want that, I'm not seeing how my words contradict that at all. However, the way the Zecters work, it means they might not get their wishes to come true and so had to use outside people.

Why on Earth would they allow them to break loose and find random people?

Because without users the Zecters are completely useless? They could be brought to Zect afterwards or forced to fight in other ways.
 
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I haven't finished the series yet, and I started a long, long time ago. It's not BAD, but the show is just getting boring. The plots just get more and more confusing, and now with Hype Kabuto, not only is Gatack once again useless (when he became a Rider, I really felt that the show started to center around him, which is exactly what I wanted), but there is honestly no threat whatsoever. No Worm can even come close. Clock Up, the coolest aspect of the series, doesn't even matter anymore. I can't feel for characters that just easily laugh off their enemies constantly. And the government conspiracy became confusing and dull, as well as the whole "my friend the Worm" thing. I just stopped caring, to be honest. The Hoppers were cool, but they hardly do anything.
 
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Well, he basically stopped with his attempts at acting superior at that point, so it wasn't just something that went nowhere.

Tsurugi as a whole was a complete mess. They really should have focused on him being a Worm that got suppressed by the real Tsurugi's mind instead of forgetting about it for most of the show, and how he paralleled Tendou. Tendou and Tsurugi could have made a nice Double Rider duo until Kagami officially sided with Tendou against ZECT.

Well, the products of the first 3 secondary Riders apparently just weren't selling. The Perfect Zecter was introduced probably to tie those Zecters to Tendo somehow and see if they'd get a sales boost with that.

In any case, I was just saying there that there was a big gap between Tendo collecting the Zecters, giving up on them and saying that he'll return them to the episode where the Perfect Zecter actually summoned the other Zecters. That story had nothing to do with the later Perfect Zecter.

It feels like an awfully coincidence that Tendou first goes collecting Zecters and then later gets a weapon that can summon Zecters. My guess would be that they wanted to ties the two together but changed their minds or forgot to resolve it.

Well, like I mentioned before, the scene shown in GLS never really lined up perfectly with the flashbacks shown in the series, even as early as episode 8, before the movie started getting any official acknowledgment.

As I said, they should have filmed the scenes better.

You're mixing together a bunch of different situations though. Zect had their own Kabuto belt and someone who was supposed to get that Zecter, so, yes, they (outside of Riku by himself - and he actually says something very early on that makes it obvious he knows Tendo got it and what is his goal) didn't expect it to end up with someone else and didn't want that situation to go on.

I've wondered if the Kabuto that ZECT was expecting and whose belt Kagami was delivering was really Dark Kabuto. Only a select few would have known the difference, so they (Kagami, Misaki, etc) would have assumed that the Kabuto that instead shows up is "the" Kabuto.

However, specifically, regarding Drake, they're never shown to have any internal candidates for it. In fact, they're directly shown to be waiting for the chosen one of the Drake Zecter (in the ending of the episode right before Drake's debut).


They would want that, I'm not seeing how my words contradict that at all. However, the way the Zecters work, it means they might not get their wishes to come true and so had to use outside people.


Because without users the Zecters are completely useless? They could be brought to Zect afterwards or forced to fight in other ways.

I've rethought what you said about this. I think I can see the reasoning behind it: the Zecters are allowed to go out on their own and find suitable people to be Riders (thus acting like spies/surveillance in a sense), and then ZECT tries to recruit them one way or another. Maybe like what we see in THE FIRST, except it's the Zecter doing it rather than an organization member. But if this was the case, they still should have said something about it early on. In Drake's debut episode, Riku or Mishima should have thrown in a line about what these Zecters do. It shouldn't have just been left without an explanation on how Drake and Sasword got their power.

Then again, Mishima in the second episode says that people not in ZECT can't be Riders after Kabuto reveals himself. That would imply that ZECT wants its own people to get Zecters, and Kabuto's appearance is a special, unexpected event.

Also, I can see the idea that Riku gave a vengeance-driven Yaguruma the Hopper Zecters and then Yagu gave one to a vengeance-driven Kageyama. The problem there is that they ended up doing nothing notable. They just appear randomly and try to look like these tough angsty loners. (Kabuto is the show where the tropes of post-Agito Rider became a parody of themselves.) So much for bringing down ZECT, they end up being killed by Natives while holding hands. And so much for being a homage to the original Double Riders when they don't even have bikes.
 
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