So what is it that do you guys like about Faiz?

[musashi03]

I agree, that Faiz even with it's faults is definitely far better when compared to Kiva, I just really had a hard time accepting Kiva for what it is. As much as I loved Otoya and all, the whole series was just too looney for me even with all the serious ambiance running around. Nothing made sense whereas I was able to piece together 555 perfectly in my head even with a lot of half-baked ideas. I really felt like Faiz had a thing going, whereas Kiva was just all-over the place with it's mythology.

 

[Medivh]

Kiva had the bad luck of coming along when Toei was in what I feel to be it's 'anime blending' cycle. They started adapting the feel with Kabuto, and were doing it trial-and-error until they got it just right in W. Otherwise I'm sure we'd have gotten a better series than we did. Not that it was bad, but....

I think Faiz and Kiva are chained (no pun intended) together by the fact that they both had alot of lost potential, and to me that stemmed from just having too much to talk about and not enough time to do it in. I'm guessing someone went through the list of things that needed to be tackled for the series, and they picked the ones they thought were most important. Unfortunately not all of those were as important as whoever it was thought. Or there were outside forces altering the story and overriding any such decisions.

As far as why people enjoy Faiz, I like it. Like many people here, I'm a particular fan of Takumi. Grumpy, unsociable, to go out on a limb, one might even say he's the Wolverine of the KR universe, albeit without the grizzled veteran side.

Anyway....one thing that occurs to me as I've read through this topic, (yes, he's on with another comic reference.) is that I feel like Faiz kinda equals Watchmen in a way.

Now I know that probably doesn't make a whole lot of sense, but the way I see it, Watchmen was, at it's core, a gritty realistic mirror being held up to the concept of Superheroes. What kind of people would REALLY do this? What would the world REALLY be like? What was the answer to those questions? Well, a falling-apart world, and a bunch of jerks and mentally questionable people as heroes.

Faiz I think shares in that sentiment. Everything from the Orphenoch Trio showing us how honest people would likely handle the situation of suddenly becoming monsters after dying, to, well....mostly everything. It's a depressing, realistic, anti-thesis to a franchise that's usually all about good guys defeating the bad ones. and despite reading watchmen many, many times and still not seeing where the rabid fandom gains their enjoyment of it and where it gets it's acclaim, I see where Faiz gets the credit it does, and I feel like in Faiz's case, it's deserved despite the flaws already discussed.

Now, obviously...*gets out the fire extinguisher*...this is all just my take on the situation. It's how I feel about the series. Guess the bottom line is I do enjoy it, mostly because it's a different take on the franchise and there are elements that I enjoy. Admittedly they did have a bit too much to talk about and it wasn't all covered, but I liked it.

 

[musashi03]

^ I do agree with you actually, since I and others did say that 555 was about losing your humanity and redemption. People will still say that it's "unrealistic" due to the fact that the characters are at the extreme ends of the spectrum, but that's what the point of 555 is, a "what if" world where a lot of people on the extreme ends of the spectrum got together and were given their own powers.

 

[Oblivion]

Oh, speaking of the "anime" vibe, yeah I agree. Den-O was like anime overdose meet life action drama. I remember feeling the same about Kiva, that some if not all the comedy felt like they would had worked if they were only in an anime and not in a life action show. I really hated the direction they took with this, and this hate is not exclusive to Kamen Rider, I hate it in those TVB HK drama series too. No matter how you try to incorporate it it still feels kinda out of place and awkward instead of funny, even when you're a frequent audience of animes and enjoy it's sense of humor(which i was back when Kiva was airing)

 

[MattComix]

Kiva had the bad luck of coming along when Toei was in what I feel to be it's 'anime blending' cycle. They started adapting the feel with Kabuto, and were doing it trial-and-error until they got it just right in W. Otherwise I'm sure we'd have gotten a better series than we did. Not that it was bad, but....

I think anime and tokusatsu have always influenced each other to greater or lesser degree over the years and now we've just been looking at an example of greater. I do agree that W handles that better than most.

I think Faiz and Kiva are chained (no pun intended) together by the fact that they both had alot of lost potential, and to me that stemmed from just having too much to talk about and not enough time to do it in.

They had nearly 50 episodes which IMO is more than enough time for anything that show was putting forth to be addressed and resolved in a satisfying way but instead Inoue wants to focus on Keitaro and Kaido getting their hair dyed or having the characters talk in circles.

I'm guessing someone went through the list of things that needed to be tackled for the series, and they picked the ones they thought were most important. Unfortunately not all of those were as important as whoever it was thought. Or there were outside forces altering the story and overriding any such decisions.

I do wonder sometimes if Inoue is a hack or if something about working for Toei is driving him into hackville. I'm starting to get the impression that it's any given series producer who has the most say in how the show comes out regardless of what the writer might or might not be trying to accomplish.

As far as why people enjoy Faiz, I like it. Like many people here, I'm a particular fan of Takumi. Grumpy, unsociable, to go out on a limb, one might even say he's the Wolverine of the KR universe, albeit without the grizzled veteran side.

Anyway....one thing that occurs to me as I've read through this topic, (yes, he's on with another comic reference.) is that I feel like Faiz kinda equals Watchmen in a way.

Now I know that probably doesn't make a whole lot of sense, but the way I see it, Watchmen was, at it's core, a gritty realistic mirror being held up to the concept of Superheroes. What kind of people would REALLY do this? What would the world REALLY be like? What was the answer to those questions? Well, a falling-apart world, and a bunch of jerks and mentally questionable people as heroes.

Faiz I think shares in that sentiment. Everything from the Orphenoch Trio showing us how honest people would likely handle the situation of suddenly becoming monsters after dying, to, well....mostly everything. It's a depressing, realistic, anti-thesis to a franchise that's usually all about good guys defeating the bad ones. and despite reading watchmen many, many times and still not seeing where the rabid fandom gains their enjoyment of it and where it gets it's acclaim, I see where Faiz gets the credit it does, and I feel like in Faiz's case, it's deserved despite the flaws already discussed.

Now, obviously...*gets out the fire extinguisher*...this is all just my take on the situation. It's how I feel about the series. Guess the bottom line is I do enjoy it, mostly because it's a different take on the franchise and there are elements that I enjoy. Admittedly they did have a bit too much to talk about and it wasn't all covered, but I liked it.

This is just my own take as well. When it comes to Watchmen, I honestly don't see it either. I'm not sure I see that much in common with it and Faiz outside of the simple fact that both their writers can be damned pretentious. Though in recent years, I've gotten the sense Moore meant the thing as work unto itself rather than some form of play-by-play handbook for how every "serious" superhero story should work from that point on.

As far as "realism" goes in my opinion Kuuga did a better job of a realistic superhero story than any other I have encountered if only because it was willing acknowledge without embarrassment that happiness and hope are just as much a part of reality as darkness and despair.

While I don't have a problem with a superhero story that has a dark tone necessarily, I've never been impressed by aggressively dark and cynical superhero stories. ..and that's kind of what the genre as it exists in the american comicbook industry seems to run on now. It was a factor in what ultimately led me to watching tokusatsu.

For me, part what was appealing to me about toku is that it was just really damn refreshing to see superhero stories that weren't ashamed of being superhero stories. I get that the worlds not always full of rainbows and people can be idiots, assholes, or both. However, neither as kid or as an adult have I ever had a problem with or been put off by the concept of characters who are very good and noble people who would try to do good with super or henshin powers should they find themselves in that position. To me, being cynical is not really anymore intelligent a response than being totally naive. It's just replacing "everything is fine" with "life sucks and then you die". So what.

Yeah, it's true that some would get those powers and use it as a form of violent masturbation for their own egos as they revel in how "badass" they are but there would also be plenty of others who understand the need for human life to be defended and rise to that challenge. Why? Because there are people out there everyday all over the world trying to make it a better place in their own large or small way. But sadly, "man helps fellow man" usually doesn't make the front page.

 

[Medivh]

This is just my own take as well. When it comes to Watchmen, I honestly don't see it either. I'm not sure I see that much in common with it and Faiz outside of the simple fact that both their writers can be damned pretentious. Though in recent years, I've gotten the sense Moore meant the thing as work unto itself rather than some form of play-by-play handbook for how every "serious" superhero story should work from that point on.

As far as "realism" goes in my opinion Kuuga did a better job of a realistic superhero story than any other I have encountered if only because it was willing acknowledge without embarrassment that happiness and hope are just as much a part of reality as darkness and despair.

While I don't have a problem with a superhero story that has a dark tone necessarily, I've never been impressed by aggressively dark and cynical superhero stories. ..and that's kind of what the genre as it exists in the american comicbook industry seems to run on now. It was a factor in what ultimately led me to watching tokusatsu.

For me, part what was appealing to me about toku is that it was just really damn refreshing to see superhero stories that weren't ashamed of being superhero stories. I get that the worlds not always full of rainbows and people can be idiots, assholes, or both. However, neither as kid or as an adult have I ever had a problem with or been put off by the concept of characters who are very good and noble people who would try to do good with super or henshin powers should they find themselves in that position. To me, being cynical is not really anymore intelligent a response than being totally naive. It's just replacing "everything is fine" with "life sucks and then you die". So what.

Yeah, it's true that some would get those powers and use it as a form of violent masturbation for their own egos as they revel in how "badass" they are but there would also be plenty of others who understand the need for human life to be defended and rise to that challenge. Why? Because there are people out there everyday all over the world trying to make it a better place in their own large or small way. But sadly, "man helps fellow man" usually doesn't make the front page.

Agreed, and oddly enough the constant barrage of Grim gritty stuff with no respite was what drew me in as well.....makes me wonder how many of us in the fandom share that....bah, I'm on a tangent again!

Actually in terms of Watchmen what I meant was that...well...in a work like it, or Neon Genesis Evangelion, or even Death Note is a good example...it's all stuff that to a certain extent it's very subjective. You take your own lessons away from it depending on how deep or shallow you look into it.

Faiz, perhaps along with other serieses like Goseiger or recently OOOs, seem that way to me. Just as there are people that look at a series or a piece of media in general and see something deep and awesome with wonderful things, there'll be people who look at it, read it, or watch it, and then stand there blankly and go: '....this....wasn't what I was led to believe it was.'

It's the natural case when it comes to subjective material. In this case I find Faiz to be subjective. What some people see in it, some don't. Even if it's pointed out. Simple as that. I've had the merits of Watchmen pointed out at me multiple times, but even after five read-throughs I got no feeling of any of that. Hence the whole comparison thing...sorry if I made that unclear. Work was calling, so had to dash before I could elaborate much more.

 

[FreedomR8G6B1]

Then it's not the event of Yuka dying's fault, but the writers fault for steering the wheel of the show in the direction that you don't like.

Which is a typical tragedy.

SCREWED!!!:shakefist

Started alone...died alone. SCREWED I TELL YA...SCREWED!!!



Sasword's demise had more meaning. Heck, even Punch Hoppers.

 

[Galaxian]

SCREWED!!!:shakefist

Started alone...died alone. SCREWED I TELL YA...SCREWED!!!



Sasword's demise had more meaning. Heck, even Punch Hoppers.

Her death was simply a plot device to sent Kiba over the edge.

The one who really got screwed over was Keitaro, who I swear sole purpose in 555 was breaking my heart.

 

[The Masked Mask]

Honestly, with the exception of end game stuff, I love most everything about 555. Paradise Lost is my favorite Rider movie, so I feel like even the show's weakest points are evened out a little for me.

The number one thing that appeals to me about 555 is the moral ambiguity. They go through great lengths to make many Orphnochs, even murderous ones, sympathetic and interesting characters. The show relies on the typical "monster of the week" story very frequently, and I like that there's so much more to it than "good guy stops the bad guy".

I love the rider system. 555 probably has my favorite overall suit designs out of ever series. I especially like Kaixa and Psyga. The fights are so much fun to watch for me. I love the mecha component, I love the belt voices, the cell phone guns, Faiz's hand flick- I'm just totally involved and excited every time.

I really like a lot of the characters. Even Kusaka, who isn't the most likable guy, is fascinating to me in just how twisted and broken he is. I would've loved to have seen even more of what went on in his screwed up, troll head.

Both the mysteries of the show and the character relationships were very involving for me right from the start. I felt like I HAD to see the next episode immediately time and time again because I was so sucked in. And, even though I could write a monster list of complaints about 555's ending, I thought a lot of the mysteries had pretty decent payoffs.

I can get why people don't like 555- it's grimdark, the characters aren't going to be easy for everyone to like, and it has some pretty clear cut flaws- but it'll always be one of my favorite series.

 

[Medivh]

Oh, speaking of the "anime" vibe, yeah I agree. Den-O was like anime overdose meet life action drama. I remember feeling the same about Kiva, that some if not all the comedy felt like they would had worked if they were only in an anime and not in a life action show. I really hated the direction they took with this, and this hate is not exclusive to Kamen Rider, I hate it in those TVB HK drama series too. No matter how you try to incorporate it it still feels kinda out of place and awkward instead of funny, even when you're a frequent audience of animes and enjoy it's sense of humor(which i was back when Kiva was airing)

It's like adapting Comic books to movies, I think. People will mess around and mess around and it'll basically be trial and error until the lightbulb goes on and someone mixes the proper amount of blur with blur, and adds just a dash of blur and gets the intended result. (Bonus points to anyone who gets the blur reference.)

I suspect that they wanted to capture that...energy that anime has. That certain spark that's unique to it. That ability to bounce back and forth between comedic moments and serious moments. A creature that mocks the boundaries of life and death-*cough* sorry...went a little Major for a moment...moving on!

So they wanted that feel, which is understandable. You start with Kabuto. It had the action-element feel to it, but it just....well to me it took itself way too seriously, and the story got mucked up.

So what do you do? Well I suppose to an extent it makes sense that you try going the other direction. Keep the action, and loosing all the serious business only amps up the energy even more. (One thing I will say in praise of Den-O is that when it got itself hyped up, you're tend to be swept along with it and get caught up in the moment.) But there wasn't enough story to frame everything out, despite some good gimmicks...

Then came Kiva...good premise....nice designs....soap opera story...anime energy and feel...looking good! But...wait....too much story...bloating...cramping....why is this dragon trapped in a building?! Someone get me the jaws of life here! and some Midol too!

Decade....um....yeah. *cue Narutaki "CURSE YOU, DECAAAAAADE!" clip montage*

Finally we get to W.....and everyone's learned their lesson. Serious business is serious, but not too serious! Comedy is fine, but we're not going overboard...got the gimmicks...got the heroes...the villains....nice plot going...enough story to be robust but not so much that you can't tie down the loose ends for the most part....releasing the movie...Toei's going for the field goal...here's the kick....IT'S GOOD!

-----------------------------------------

Okay so maybe I got a bit dramatic there, but you get the idea. I honestly think it was just trial and error, and Toei and it's writers are (hopefully) continuing to learn.